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My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love.In other words a hymn.That is all, but that is enough.Life goes on, despite pain and fear.Music is beautiful,life is beautiful.


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Originally Posted by Furtwangler
Originally Posted by LarryK
That price difference is pretty crazy. Why? I suppose the European manufacturers have not achieved economies of scale to bring down the price of their grands, I don’t know.

Who pays these prices? Are the Americans subsidizing the Europeans?

Yamaha can sell you a 6’ 1” S3X for around $50-70k, I suppose. Yamaha sells a lot of pianos.

I know why. PM me.
I know why too, it's because someone pushed the piano over!
😆😲🙄


My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love.In other words a hymn.That is all, but that is enough.Life goes on, despite pain and fear.Music is beautiful,life is beautiful.


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Originally Posted by tre corda
Originally Posted by Furtwangler
Originally Posted by LarryK
That price difference is pretty crazy. Why? I suppose the European manufacturers have not achieved economies of scale to bring down the price of their grands, I don’t know.

Who pays these prices? Are the Americans subsidizing the Europeans?

Yamaha can sell you a 6’ 1” S3X for around $50-70k, I suppose. Yamaha sells a lot of pianos.

I know why. PM me.
I know why too, it's because someone pushed the piano over!
😆😲🙄

Pushed the piano over the Atlantic, you mean.

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Originally Posted by tend to rush
Originally Posted by Jean Claude
The best new European piano you can buy for 80 000? Not as much piano as you might expect. 80k$ is about 72k€. There is no Bosendorfer grand selling new much under 90k€, you might just get a Hamburg S or an O, a Bechstein 167 (perhaps a bit bigger in the Academie series), or a Steingraeber 170 (but only just). Think you need to up your game rather. Somewhere North of 200 k€ would give you a decent choice.

This sounds like you're saying a Hamburg S or O, a Bechstein 167 or a Steingraeber 170 would barely be worth having. These are pretty great instruments.

If it sounds like that I apologise. I agree that these are all terrific pianos and personally, I would sell my daughters into perpetual slavery in exchange for the Steingraeber. Nonetheless, additional funds would be needed for a wide choice.


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And before anybody decides to get stroppy about selling daughters, I should stress that if I had any sons (which I don't) I'd throw them into the deal too.


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Reading the original question, the op apparently does not know how much new European premium pianos cost (usually more than 60-80k), does not say what size it would have to be (pretty important), and assumes European pianos would have something in common that non-European pianos do not have (what's that).

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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I don't think any other sites except PB have accurate MSRP and SMP values.

Of course not. No other site lists anything and SMP values. Only PB lists SMP values.
The key word is my post was "accurate". IOW the MSRP values on the sites you mentioned are probably wrong.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/31/22 10:48 AM.
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I don't think any other sites except PB have accurate MSRP and SMP values.

Of course not. No other site lists anything and SMP values. Only PB lists SMP values.
The key word is my post was "accurate". IOW the MSRP values on the sites you mentioned are probably wrong.

Remember that the discussion here is about pianos in Europe for the OP and unfortunately the USA PB SMP figures are completely and utterly wrong over here. Klaviano or the dealers that list actual selling prices online are I think the most accurate sources of information in Europe (There may be the odd manufacturer that has successfully frightened all the dealers into not publishing prices, despite the European free trade laws, but real prices are available for most brands if you look hard enough - and I don't want a Steinway :-) )

Last edited by gwing; 01/31/22 11:05 AM.
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Originally Posted by LarryK
That price difference is pretty crazy. Why? I suppose the European manufacturers have not achieved economies of scale to bring down the price of their grands, I don’t know.

Who pays these prices? Are the Americans subsidizing the Europeans?

Yamaha can sell you a 6’ 1” S3X for around $50-70k, I suppose. Yamaha sells a lot of pianos.

US$50k = £37k. I was offered a brand new Yamaha S6X for £37k just last year so it would look like Yamaha is also selling their pianos for more in the US compared to the UK?

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Originally Posted by gwing
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I don't think any other sites except PB have accurate MSRP and SMP values.

Of course not. No other site lists anything and SMP values. Only PB lists SMP values.
The key word is my post was "accurate". IOW the MSRP values on the sites you mentioned are probably wrong.

Remember that the discussion here is about pianos in Europe for the OP and unfortunately the USA PB SMP figures are completely and utterly wrong over here. Klaviano or the dealers that list actual selling prices online are I think the most accurate sources of information in Europe (There may be the odd manufacturer that has successfully frightened all the dealers into not publishing prices, despite the European free trade laws, but real prices are available for most brands if you look hard enough - and I don't want a Steinway :-) )
There are several discussions in this thread which often happens when threads get lengthy. One was about why MSRP was less than SMP, and I pointed out that was probably because the sites quoted for MSRP(which I don't think are European sites) were inaccurate. In my very first post on this thread, I stated the information I quoted applied to the U.S.

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Price (EUR) Piano
77500 Blüthner 4 (210)
66360 Blüthner 4 (210)
69820 Blüthner 6 (190)
84741 Bosendorfer 185
65000 Grotrian Steinweg Concert Royal (277)
64900 Petrof P 210 Pasat
68900 Sauter Noblesse 160/185
78990 Sauter Vivace 210
62700 Schimmel Belle Epoque
62700 Schimmel C 189 Tradition
62700 Schimmel Intarsie
67400 Schimmel K 195 Tradition
70600 Schimmel K 219 Tradition
62100 Schimmel K 219 Tradition
72600 Schimmel K 230 Tradition
61990 Shigeru Kawai SK-5
74990 Shigeru Kawai SK-6
69671 Shigeru Kawai SK-6
60000 Steingraeber & Söhne A-170
82645 Steingraeber & Söhne B-192
60224 Yamaha C5X
64548 Yamaha C6X
71037 Yamaha C7X
79290 Yamaha CF4
70000 Yamaha CFIII
64400 Yamaha S6X
63644 Yamaha S6X
71612 Yamaha S7X
64900 Yamaha S7X

From klaviano listings of new pianos EUR 60-80k. All you need to do is pick the best one, hence the best new piano piano money can buy (i.e. you can't buy it if it's not available).


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Originally Posted by Jean Claude
Originally Posted by tend to rush
Originally Posted by Jean Claude
The best new European piano you can buy for 80 000? Not as much piano as you might expect. 80k$ is about 72k€. There is no Bosendorfer grand selling new much under 90k€, you might just get a Hamburg S or an O, a Bechstein 167 (perhaps a bit bigger in the Academie series), or a Steingraeber 170 (but only just). Think you need to up your game rather. Somewhere North of 200 k€ would give you a decent choice.

This sounds like you're saying a Hamburg S or O, a Bechstein 167 or a Steingraeber 170 would barely be worth having. These are pretty great instruments.

If it sounds like that I apologise. I agree that these are all terrific pianos and personally, I would sell my daughters into perpetual slavery in exchange for the Steingraeber. Nonetheless, additional funds would be needed for a wide choice.

Dear Jean Claude,

We are developing a much milder indentured servitude program for this type of exchange. Do your daughters have high level piano technician, wood working, or at least piano moving skills?


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
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check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

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Originally Posted by cygnusdei
Price (EUR) Piano

65000 Grotrian Steinweg Concert Royal (277)

From klaviano listings of new pianos EUR 60-80k. All you need to do is pick the best one, hence the best new piano piano money can buy (i.e. you can't buy it if it's not available).

Unfortunately this isn't new.. otherwise it would be a heck of a deal.

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Originally Posted by Aritempor
Originally Posted by cygnusdei
Price (EUR) Piano

65000 Grotrian Steinweg Concert Royal (277)

From klaviano listings of new pianos EUR 60-80k. All you need to do is pick the best one, hence the best new piano piano money can buy (i.e. you can't buy it if it's not available).

Unfortunately this isn't new.. otherwise it would be a heck of a deal.
They give quite a fair amount of information about the instruments such new or used.I did not look up this Grotrian, but yes there are quite a few used pianos there. (as well as new)The three examples I posted were new.Still it would quite a hasslre importing a piano I assume.Lately I have noticed many US dealers advertising there as well.

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Originally Posted by Maestro Lennie
One big factor here is size. You can get a fairly large Estonia for what a small Bosendorfer or Bechstein would cost.

Which is better?
That Sauter Delta is quite a good size.I think it's 6ft or nearly so.I would say a nice for a home.I wonder if its been at the dealer a long time?

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Petrof
Estonia

And new ones from.Petrof: Ant. Peteof

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And no-one mentioned here August Forster yet...

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Originally Posted by maucycy
And no-one mentioned here August Forster yet...

Well I did show the above Forster


My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love.In other words a hymn.That is all, but that is enough.Life goes on, despite pain and fear.Music is beautiful,life is beautiful.


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Buying a lightly used piano has some advantages. There's the obvious cost difference, but also you have a chance to hear how the sound has developed after the piano was played in a bit.

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From klaviano listings of new pianos EUR 60-80k. All you need to do is pick the best one, hence the best new piano piano money can buy (i.e. you can't buy it if it's not available)
.[/quote cygnusdei]

That's quite some "listing",did you check if all those are new?

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