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Thought this might be interesting.


[Linked Image]

What I observe is that the relative humidity, although lower than I'd like to be, is held within a tighter range averaging about 35.5% =-3%, during the time period I had the device inside the instrument, an upright piano, as compared to when it was outside the piano where the average RH was nearly identical, but the swings were closer to double in amplitude at roughly 6%.

Seems to me the PLS is helping hold the RH in a tighter range.
I was also intrigued by the nearly constant temperature inside the instrument.
The thermostat for the heating/cooling system seems to be doing its job to keep things within a 3 degree Farenheit range.

Please feel free to draw your own conclusions, and as ever, YMMV.


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Interesting, thanks for taking the time to gather the data. A few questions and suggestion:

1. The room temperature variation seems large for a home, it varies about 5-6 deg on a ~30 minute cycle. What kind of heating system and thermostat are used?
2. Any thoughts why the humidity in the room is consistently about 3 deg lower in the early morning than in the afternoon, is that a setback thermostat for example affecting temp and relative humidity?
3. If you have the time, it would be interesting to move your internal sensor to the extreme positions in the piano to see how consistent the humidity is held at the farthest distance from the heating/humidifying element.


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Originally Posted by Seeker
Thought this might be interesting.


[Linked Image]

What I observe is that the relative humidity, although lower than I'd like to be, is held within a tighter range averaging about 35.5% =-3%, during the time period I had the device inside the instrument, an upright piano, as compared to when it was outside the piano where the average RH was nearly identical, but the swings were closer to double in amplitude at roughly 6%.

Seems to me the PLS is helping hold the RH in a tighter range.
I was also intrigued by the nearly constant temperature inside the instrument.
The thermostat for the heating/cooling system seems to be doing its job to keep things within a 3 degree Farenheit range.

Please feel free to draw your own conclusions, and as ever, YMMV.

It would be interesting to know how the system performs during extremely dry periods, we had humidity as low as 8% here in So Cal. During that period, my system was consuming 15 gallons of water a day to maintain 45% for the entire home (Humidifier is a Honeywell HM750, running @ 240V for a maximum output of 22 gallons per day.)


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The subject of dehumidification/humidification systems came across my mind recently as I tried to make a recording of a Chopin nocturne and realized how poorly out of tune my grand piano had become with some recent sudden cold fronts we had here in Florida.

I used to have a damp chaser system heater bar installed under my Kawai RX2 and I can't tell whether the system helped to maintain tuning stability or not. Regardless of the fact that I had a damp chaser system installed I always went to great lengths to keep the piano room's humidity and temperature controlled.

When I purchased my Shigeru SK2 a couple of years ago I decided against a piano dehumidifier/humidifier system as I wasn't convinced that such a system would work if the heater bar was placed under the piano in an open environment or at least it didn't make sense to me. It would seem that the bar would only control the humidity in a small area under the piano and where that area started and ended I would have no idea as the bar was in an open environment. At worse I thought maybe the bar maybe creating an imbalance in the temperatures and humidity underneath the piano and inside the piano that could somehow warp the soundboard over time. This was just all conjecture and most likely the heater bar doesn't create enough heat to damage the piano but either way I just wasn't convinced. I could see however how a bar placed in side a closed upright piano may work as in the OP case. I read somewhere that the dampchaser bar does not control the humidity inside a grand leaving the pinblock and hammers still susceptible to humidity fluctuations.

Anyways, the thought of installing a system such as this has entered my mind again given the recent weather changes we had where I live but I'm still on the fence. I continue to control the temperature and humidity in my piano room as best I could with the most recent improvement involving encapsulating and dehumidifying my home's crawl space which really helped a lot. My indoor room dehumidifier rarely ever goes on anymore, but the air inside the home seems to go between 55% humidity and then rapidly down to 45% humidity with these cold fronts which I think is throwing my piano out of tune. It was easier to control the humidity when all I was dealing with was excess humidity we have here in Fl not these dry spells.

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Originally Posted by MarkL
Interesting, thanks for taking the time to gather the data. A few questions and suggestion:

1. The room temperature variation seems large for a home, it varies about 5-6 deg on a ~30 minute cycle. What kind of heating system and thermostat are used?
Daikan Mini-Split Daikan One+ Thermostat
Originally Posted by MarkL
2. Any thoughts why the humidity in the room is consistently about 3 deg lower in the early morning than in the afternoon, is that a setback thermostat for example affecting temp and relative humidity?
It's a difficult room to heat and cool properly. It started as a car port, later became the sales office for our subdivision back around 1968. So it's on a slab with stone tile above that. Walls have about the same insulation as the rest of the house, i.e., not enough to be great, and they gave it a vaulted ceiling (up to the roof) and neglected to put any insulation up there.

I believe that the RH drops early AM, because that is the coldest time of the day, so the internal air handler for the minisplit is pumping out the most conditioned air during those hours. We've had, for us in Maryland, Chicago like temperatures which exacerbates the problem.

Given the extremely high efficiency of the minisplit, I don't run it on a setback preferring to keep the temps as stable as I can. It's easier on me that way as well as my two pianos.
Originally Posted by MarkL
3. If you have the time, it would be interesting to move your internal sensor to the extreme positions in the piano to see how consistent the humidity is held at the farthest distance from the heating/humidifying element.
I suspect it would be the same all the way at the bottom end of the keyboard, and might differ slightly at the high end which is where the bucket and bar live.


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I Make Music that Lifts People Up & Brings Them Together
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Originally Posted by Jethro
The subject of dehumidification/humidification systems came across my mind recently as I tried to make a recording of a Chopin nocturne and realized how poorly out of tune my grand piano had become with some recent sudden cold fronts we had here in Florida.

I used to have a damp chaser system heater bar installed under my Kawai RX2 and I can't tell whether the system helped to maintain tuning stability or not. Regardless of the fact that I had a damp chaser system installed I always went to great lengths to keep the piano room's humidity and temperature controlled.
====SNIP====
Anyways, the thought of installing a system such as this has entered my mind again given the recent weather changes we had where I live but I'm still on the fence. I continue to control the temperature and humidity in my piano room as best I could with the most recent improvement involving encapsulating and dehumidifying my home's crawl space which really helped a lot. My indoor room dehumidifier rarely ever goes on anymore, but the air inside the home seems to go between 55% humidity and then rapidly down to 45% humidity with these cold fronts which I think is throwing my piano out of tune. It was easier to control the humidity when all I was dealing with was excess humidity we have here in Fl not these dry spells.
On my Steinert (6'10" pretty much identical to a Steinway B) I've got 3 heater bars, one humidifier bucket. On the Konzert8, just the one bucket and bar inside the piano to the right of the pedals.
I can tell you that tuning is MUCH more stable for the Steinert with the PLS than without it. I believe that the sound is more consistent as well, because the bars tend to even out the RH for the board. The Bechstein is much newer (about 20 years vs 90 for the Steinert); the pins are MUCH tighter, and once tuned it stays in tune. Both pianos drift up/down in pitch a few cents at the seasonal changes: AC on, Heat on. I can't say how much better they are doing, because I've had PLS systems on them for such a long time.

You might want to invest $20 in a Govee and start tracking your temp and relative humidity. At least that way you know what you're dealing with.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
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I Make Music that Lifts People Up & Brings Them Together
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Originally Posted by blueviewlaguna.
It would be interesting to know how the system performs during extremely dry periods, we had humidity as low as 8% here in So Cal. During that period, my system was consuming 15 gallons of water a day to maintain 45% for the entire home (Humidifier is a Honeywell HM750, running @ 240V for a maximum output of 22 gallons per day.)

https://my.ptg.org/communities/comm...2-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer

Meanwhile you might save some electricity with this guy: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0744Y162X (just don't feed it with tap water, you will need RO filter). I'm testing it right now in the New England winter and it maintains 35% in the whole house without sweat (35% is limited by condensation problems, not by device itself).

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Originally Posted by Victor66
Originally Posted by blueviewlaguna.
It would be interesting to know how the system performs during extremely dry periods, we had humidity as low as 8% here in So Cal. During that period, my system was consuming 15 gallons of water a day to maintain 45% for the entire home (Humidifier is a Honeywell HM750, running @ 240V for a maximum output of 22 gallons per day.)

https://my.ptg.org/communities/comm...2-a628-bd7c7d770cbf&tab=digestviewer

Meanwhile you might save some electricity with this guy: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0744Y162X (just don't feed it with tap water, you will need RO filter). I'm testing it right now in the New England winter and it maintains 35% in the whole house without sweat (35% is limited by condensation problems, not by device itself).

Thanks for the link, at 80 pints however (10 gallons/day) its a bit under 50% of my current system. The Honeywell sprays the steam into the HVAC plenum and is distributed throughout the house.


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Quote
and they gave it a vaulted ceiling (up to the roof) and neglected to put any insulation up there.

Anyway you can get that insulated or address other parts of energy efficiency? Maybe foam between the rafters\ceiling joists? Those swings in temperature in a 30 minute span is crazy and any built up humidity is going out the roof.

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Originally Posted by blueviewlaguna.
Thanks for the link, at 80 pints however (10 gallons/day) its a bit under 50% of my current system. The Honeywell sprays the steam into the HVAC plenum and is distributed throughout the house.

It's enough for my 2600 sq. ft. house with nearly no water outside (tested with a negative outdoor dew point). Of course YMMV. The good part is that it's independent of HVAC (there are times in the spring here where heating is not required or turned on only occasionally, yet it's very dry), consumes ~120W and is pretty quiet. And an interesting fact about "distributing" is that even in the attic I rarely have less than 30% even though my humidifier is two floors below behind a normally closed door and I have two independent HVAC systems. That's why I don't believe in DC. If humidity is distributed this fast in my conditions what are the chances that it would stay under my grand where DC is? Unless I use a full cover of course.

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Originally Posted by Victor66
Originally Posted by blueviewlaguna.
Thanks for the link, at 80 pints however (10 gallons/day) its a bit under 50% of my current system. The Honeywell sprays the steam into the HVAC plenum and is distributed throughout the house.

It's enough for my 2600 sq. ft. house with nearly no water outside (tested with a negative outdoor dew point). Of course YMMV. The good part is that it's independent of HVAC (there are times in the spring here where heating is not required or turned on only occasionally, yet it's very dry), consumes ~120W and is pretty quiet. And an interesting fact about "distributing" is that even in the attic I rarely have less than 30% even though my humidifier is two floors below behind a normally closed door and I have two independent HVAC systems. That's why I don't believe in DC. If humidity is distributed this fast in my conditions what are the chances that it would stay under my grand where DC is? Unless I use a full cover of course.

Agreed, I don't believe in DC either. For me, having the humidifier as part of the HVAC (where a dedicated dehumidifier connected via motorized valve to HVAC plenum) is also part of the system) allows full integration between the 4 systems (Humid, Dehum, A/C, Heat) for a deadband of +/- 2% RH and +/- 2 degrees F. Under the integration, all systems work together yet independently (for example low fan only with Humidifier). Here is a link to the Dehumidifier - https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywe...msclkid=97a7c63fab231a8a3a01a7ce242ad83e

Last edited by blueviewlaguna.; 01/26/22 02:14 PM.

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Originally Posted by TBell
Quote
and they gave it a vaulted ceiling (up to the roof) and neglected to put any insulation up there.

Anyway you can get that insulated or address other parts of energy efficiency? Maybe foam between the rafters\ceiling joists? Those swings in temperature in a 30 minute span is crazy and any built up humidity is going out the roof.
Of course there is.
All involve ca$h I don't have.
Our roof is nearing the end of its service life.
When we replace it, that will be the time I finally get to it.
============================================
There is a drywall ceiling under the rafters.
I've thought about having insulation blown in, but haven't found anyone who could/would do it.
I welcome any suggestions for how to get it done, what to tell a contractor, etc.


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Well we just use a free standing dehumidifier and humidifier. This year was unusual with quite low temperatures during a few weeks in winter.While on vacation the temperature was kept at a moderate level.Of course during this period we had no control over the humidity.So in a few months there a🙄 range of 65 to 40%.Certainly at times a damp chaser sounds tempting.On the whole though the range is easily controlled.

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FWIW - I knew, when I posted, that the Damp Chaser thing is one of those "Piano World religious wars" topics, kind of like whether it's best to sit high or low, wrists up/down/sideways, among others. In a world where I had more ca$h, I would have a studio where the temperature and humidity were perfectly controlled, I had a beautiful view of a perfectly manicured garden through windows with fancy reflective films on them and rare gases inside them, everything would sparkle, and I would have a couple of Faziolis, or Hamburg Steinways in perfect condition, and... well, you get the idea.

I don't have the ca$h, so I make the best gourmet lemonade I can.

Subjectively, it's been my experience that the Damp Chasers on my pianos were doing their jobs, mitigating the worst of the extremes of temperature and humidity. And those extremes have been worse than they are now. Prior to getting the mini-split, I used a roll-around portable air-conditioner/heat pump. In the winter, it could barely get the studio to 62F which mean playing with gloves with open fingers until things warmed up more, and the keys were COLD. Summers, I sweated.

The mini-split has made a huge difference, keeping the temperature in a relatively narrow band (the Govee is not entirely accurate, it really is about a 3 to 4 degree F swing, and the RH goes down the more heat is blowing. It also has the virtue of being nearly silent except at the highest fan speeds, so, for practicing I can keep it running constantly. I shut it down when I am doing recordings. It's also more efficient than the portable unit; our electricity bill is down, and I am keeping things as close as possible to a constant 71F whatever the outside temperature is. I couldn't really do that without the mini-split.

I decided to see if conditions were different INSIDE the Bechstein, i.e., whether or not the temp and rh oscillations were damped in there, and... they were, which tells me that there is SOME VALUE in having such a system installed. How MUCH value is up to you to determine for your own situation.

Once again, final thought here, YMMV. Everything "depends".

Not advocating any particular solution for any of you, just reporting some results that might help others as they ponder the pros/cons and pollywogs involved in caring for our beloved instruments.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
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Thank you, highly appreciated, polywogs and all.😊

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I would argue that most people on this forum who contribute to the DC wars and express a belief that either it works or it doesn't work have not had extensive experience with both using a Dc and not using a DC. For those people, their opinions are just that - opinions, and lacking in counter-knowledge that would enable them to better argue their side.

Many piano technicians have experience on both sides, and some pianists do as well. I am one of them. I had a grand for decades without a DC that lived in a variety of environments with significant changes in temperature and RH. I have had two grands that both had a DC living in similar environments with significant changes in temperature and RH. The first grand developed soundboard cracks and was difficult to tune. Both grands with a DC were (and are) wonderfully stable in tuning and show no sign of issues with the soundboard, bridge, or pinblock.

I insisted that an installed DC be part of the purchase price of my new (2009) M&H BB. I have no regrets - only appreciation for a simple, cheap, prophylactic for an expensive grand.

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excuse the non expert question, but what has the most impact on a tune, change in humidity or change in temp?
Like one of the posters I live in FL. Using a stand alone dehumidifier to keep humidity around 50% but even with that, I can tell my piano sound different depending on the days.
(Usually temp is study in florida because we use AC all year long, when there is a cold spell, in my case AC stops working, humidity goes up)

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Originally Posted by Seeker
Originally Posted by TBell
Quote
and they gave it a vaulted ceiling (up to the roof) and neglected to put any insulation up there.

Anyway you can get that insulated or address other parts of energy efficiency? Maybe foam between the rafters\ceiling joists? Those swings in temperature in a 30 minute span is crazy and any built up humidity is going out the roof.
Of course there is.
All involve ca$h I don't have.
Our roof is nearing the end of its service life.
When we replace it, that will be the time I finally get to it.
============================================
There is a drywall ceiling under the rafters.
I've thought about having insulation blown in, but haven't found anyone who could/would do it.
I welcome any suggestions for how to get it done, what to tell a contractor, etc.
Originally Posted by prout
I would argue that most people on this forum who contribute to the DC wars and express a belief that either it works or it doesn't work have not had extensive experience with both using a Dc and not using a DC. For those people, their opinions are just that - opinions, and lacking in counter-knowledge that would enable them to better argue their side.

Many piano technicians have experience on both sides, and some pianists do as well. I am one of them. I had a grand for decades without a DC that lived in a variety of environments with significant changes in temperature and RH. I have had two grands that both had a DC living in similar environments with significant changes in temperature and RH. The first grand developed soundboard cracks and was difficult to tune. Both grands with a DC were (and are) wonderfully stable in tuning and show no sign of issues with the soundboard, bridge, or pinblock.

I insisted that an installed DC be part of the purchase price of my new (2009) M&H BB. I have no regrets - only appreciation for a simple, cheap, prophylactic for an expensive grand.
I tend to agree. Having seen the stability a DC provides in an old, drafty Victorian, that's all the evidence I need. There's no way my piano would stay in tune otherwise, when the RH can vary by as much as 25-30% over a couple of days.


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Originally Posted by prout
I would argue that most people on this forum who contribute to the DC wars and express a belief that either it works or it doesn't work have not had extensive experience with both using a Dc and not using a DC. For those people, their opinions are just that - opinions, and lacking in counter-knowledge that would enable them to better argue their side.

I thankful to Seeker for providing the informative material.I can only speak for myself in this perhaps as a reader of DC wars not as a contributor, so all of the information posted so far is interesting.Certainly having DC is not as that expensive to run.
The dehumidifier and humidifier much more so, and dehumidifier can be noisy.So when my devices finally die, I may think over these questions again.

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Originally Posted by proxy001
excuse the non expert question, but what has the most impact on a tune, change in humidity or change in temp?
Like one of the posters I live in FL. Using a stand alone dehumidifier to keep humidity around 50% but even with that, I can tell my piano sound different depending on the days.
(Usually temp is study in florida because we use AC all year long, when there is a cold spell, in my case AC stops working, humidity goes up)

Relative Humidity is just that - relative.

This means that the vapour pressure of the water varies with temperature and is always trying to find an equilibrium so that the water adsorption rate is equal to the water desorption rate.

If the temperature drops, the Rh rises until the vapour equilibrium is re-established. This is why it tends to get foggy at night as the temperature drops and when the sun rises and increases the temperature, the fog 'burns' off even though the absolute amount of water vapour hasn't changed.

So, both temperature and water vapour play an important role. Higher RH tends to cause the soundboard to swell a bit, changing the tune and causing the hammers to swell, softening the tone a bit. Higher temperature causes the strings to stretch, changing the pitch a bit. Blow on a middle pitch string and it will change pitch by 10 cents or more.

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