2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
95 members (anotherscott, Animisha, Burkhard, brennbaer, brdwyguy, achoo42, Adem, 21 invisible), 734 guests, and 327 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
#3187911 01/23/22 12:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 27
B
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 27
After having my Kimball Viennese voiced, I still have one bass note (1st F#) that I would describe as sour, but only as it is struck by the hammer. It cleans up immediately and has clean overtones and sound after the strike. I asked the tuner about it when he was finishing up his regulation/voicing and he muttered something about how some (I think he was trying not to say the word ‘cheaper’) pianos can have a bad note or two. I would maybe agree other than the sound becomes pure after the strike. To me, it sounds like that hammer is shaped incorrectly or is hitting, or releasing from, the string incorrectly. Otherwise, the tune and unisons are all perfect, and the regulation now seems as good as any Schwander could be. Any suggestions? Is that just the way it’s going to be from here on out? I’d rather not put new hammers in it. The strings all look perfect, there is no corrosion or rust anywhere. It literally looks like it left the showroom when I bought it off the little old lady.
But it is amazing how ONE note can ruin everything! Please help

Last edited by benz-tech; 01/23/22 12:08 PM.
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,288
7000 Post Club Member
Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,288
Does that note have one string or two? Badly matched bass strings happen, and the copper-wound bass strings can go dead. Have seen that happen with pianos as young as 10 years and as old as 80. And it happens usually unevenly across the bass notes, when it does happen.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 15,008
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 15,008
I would agree that most all acoustic pianos have that one note, or more, that just doesn't sound as good as the rest of them.

That said, I'm thinking a really good tech, with a lot of experience, can at least critique/massage or otherwise do something to make it somewhat better, even if just a slight improvement. Maybe at the time the tech was tired/fatigued and ready to move on the next service call.

Based on your description, it sounds like the problem is with the initial impact between hammer and string, and then starts to blend in nicely with itself or other intervals. Maybe a little hammer voicing? Filing, needling, or a few strokes with a brass brush?

I'm thinking that particular note is a single bass string. If nothing else works, maybe loosen the pin, remove the string from the rear hitch and give it a twist or two in the direction of the copper coils? Might be worth a try.

Good luck!

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,913
W
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,913
+1 Some one needs to go through all the possibilities to find the source of the problem. Could you post a recording from your phone of the note played from pp to ff?


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Joined: Oct 2021
Posts: 358
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Oct 2021
Posts: 358
This is 99.99% likely NOT the problem, but sounds vaguely like a puzzler in the low bass I ran across once, a voicing needle that had broken off in the hammer felt. I discovered it when *I* stuck a needle in and hit the broken needle.

Just a remote remote possibility.

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 30,541
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 30,541
Originally Posted by An Old Square
This is 99.99% likely NOT the problem, but sounds vaguely like a puzzler in the low bass I ran across once, a voicing needle that had broken off in the hammer felt. I discovered it when *I* stuck a needle in and hit the broken needle.

Just a remote remote possibility.

That happens. You can check with a magnet, if you do not see anything.


Semipro Tech
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 27
B
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 27
It is the lowest 2-string note. The the
single-stringed F just below it is pure. The G above is much much better but not as pure as the F. He double-checked the unison when I brought it up and it is dead on. He did another quick test then also: muted one string, pressed the key but with no strike, then he hit a random fifth(?) midway up the keyboard and released. Both F# strings sounded the same individually. I’m sure I’m not explaining that well.
The more I sit here and play that note, it almost sounds like the strings are out of sync at first and then they match their sine waves a moment later. I’m not convinced it’s the strike anymore

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,792
P
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,792
If the two strings are not perfectly matched in terms of inharmonicity, even if the fundamental is perfectly in tune, the upper partials will not be in tune, and will beat loudly enough for you to hear. After a very short time, the strength of the upper partials may weaken enough to make the two strings sound more in tune.

I had this problem on my M&H BB original strings (2009). I couldn't actually tune several of the duples. I replaced the bass strings last year with very fine matched strings and the problem disappeared.

To test, press the key down so both strings can speak and then strike and release any octave, fifth, or third, (or any other note in the high end) and listen for the partials. They will likely be beating.

Last edited by prout; 01/23/22 01:59 PM.
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 536
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 536
Download TuneLab trial version and examine the pitch of each string, muting off one of the strings with rubber or felt so you are measuring only one at a time. See if one of the string's pitch vary widely as the note is played. That may get you closer to diagnosing the problem.

Tunelab Download

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,913
W
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,913
Would Rick's suggestion of twisting the string change the inharmonicity? If so which string to adjust?


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 15,008
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 15,008
Originally Posted by Withindale
Would Rick's suggestion of twisting the string change the inharmonicity? If so which string to adjust?

Well, if other things have been tried, to no avail, doing the string twist on both bi-chord strings might be worth a try.

On my Yamaha C7, the next to the lowest C, or the first C bi-chord note has a bit of an odd sound, a little fuzzier than all the other bi-chord notes. The fuzziness/impurity can be improved with some very fine tuning, but it still doesn't sound as good as its bi-chord neighbors. But it does blend in when play music and not focusing on that one note.

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 27
B
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 27
Thank you for the tip, Rick. Yes the partials beat like a throbbing sound when I do that test with both strings speaking. I have a tuning app so I checked the unison and found it off a bit so I matched them and it made a significant improvement. But, that note still has a unique sound, albeit less sour than before. On my app, I noticed the pitch on one string definitely moves around a lot more than the other and the same string has the sour sound at first. Is this just a bad string?

Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 536
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 536
I'm no expert but you might have a loose bridge pin or the string needs to be firmly reseated on the bridge pin. You can test this by firmly tucking the string against the pin with a brass rod (something that won't mar the string) and have someone play the note. This applies to the sour string.

Last edited by TBell; 01/24/22 03:32 AM. Reason: edit

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Pianist Magazine back issues
by cstueart - 05/19/22 10:41 AM
Keith Jarrett Chord Progressions (video)
by indigo_dave - 05/19/22 10:07 AM
Rounded keytops
by zxac - 05/19/22 09:50 AM
Change of Screen Name
by Bart K - 05/19/22 09:46 AM
Most recorded piece
by pianoloverus - 05/19/22 09:27 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics213,143
Posts3,192,847
Members105,315
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5