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Joined: May 2015
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I hope this thread will end soon, and I also wonder why the OP started it. He does not play the piano, and does not own any piano. He’s already decided he wants to buy a Bosenforfer. Actually no, I have yet to decide, I'm thinking years ahead not right now, I don't have plans for now, so I might not buy a bosendorfer, I'l probably be talking to the sellers and owners first and get information so I haven't set up my mind yet. And next week I'l visit my niece as she owns an upright, I'l start playing on her and the basics down. Sorry for the confusion on my end, but the Bosenforfer plans came from your original post re pianos in Malta I am looking for a Bosendorfer personally, I heard they're good and not overrated like the Steinways ————- When you get to the point where you are considering purchasing a piano, I hope you will keep an open mind, there are good pisno brands that you have probably not heard of.
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Joined: Jan 2022
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Well, I admit I made a mistake there, the bosendorfer is not my first choice, I may buy an upright someday soon, there are places it will fit then in the future when I modify the largest room, replace it will single bed and move the furniture I would buy a grand that is around 180-200 cm that is considered larger than a baby grand right?
Obviously not looking for concert grand, no space for it and too expensive for my wallet.
Ofcourse I'l take to the sellers/agents first since they would sincerely guide me.
I'l also talk to my niece since she has an upright herself so she could give me an aid.
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How good at piano are you required to be to consider a rare, expensive, or exotic piano? Can you imagine buying one just for furniture, lol?
Cunningham Studio grand; Yamaha CLP-645 Clavinova
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Steinway's primary market is hobby pianists and they want those hobbyists to feel good about being sold a Steinway by feeling associated with pro pianists/influencers. Most hobbyists aren't rich afaik, Steinway pianos are generally expensive so few people buy a Steinway, The kawai, Yamaha, Spirio and such models are more affordable so they're more likely to be bought by hobbyists, maybe they might have the cash to buy such a higher grade Piano like a Steinway, bosendorfer or shigeru kawai later in their life. Being a piano hobbyist is not related to one's wealth. Steinway doesn't build tens of thousands of pianos each year like Kawai and Yamaha. Steinway makes around 1-3K pianos each year. Their primary market is hobbyists who are wealthy enough to afford a Steinway.
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There was a guy in Michigan, if I recall correctly, who spent about a million dollars building a pipe organ in his house. The thing was, he didn’t play the pipe organ. He invited people over to play for him.
Why not the same for a piano? People have a right to spend their money any way they see fit. Every sale of an acoustic piano is good for the market for acoustic pianos.
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How good at piano are you required to be to consider a rare, expensive, or exotic piano? Can you imagine buying one just for furniture, lol? There is nothing wrong with buying a piano, expensive or not, purely as furniture. People have the right to spend their money as they wish without being criticized or looked down upon. In fact, many piano companies would probably not survive if some of their pianos weren't buying them just for their furniture appeal.
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How good at piano are you required to be to consider a rare, expensive, or exotic piano? Can you imagine buying one just for furniture, lol? If it was just for furniture some might say that that person was "superficial". Is that good or bad I don't know. A web search for the word "superficial" comes up with: "The word superficial has to do with appearances and the surface. If a car is in an accident, but it only has a few scratches, you could say it has superficial damage, because the important parts are OK. If you just glance at a movie for a second, your opinion will be more superficial than the opinion of someone who watched the whole film closely. Superficial can have a negative flavor; calling someone superficial is saying that they are shallow and care too little about meaningful things." Does buying a Steinway just for furniture make one superficial? I don't know but it sure seems like a waste of rare and precious wood carved into a beautiful instrument that could otherwise be used by some to make beautiful music. Kind of like buying a Pastrami sandwich at the local deli only to admire it while a homeless man is begging for a meal. But the homeless man can't buy the sandwich anyway so... But no one is stopping anyone from doing anything they want with their hard earned money and people can do whatever they want with it- I agree. Heck I own a pretty nice piano (Shigeru). Who's to say I deserve that or could make the best use of it. It's one of those ethical questions.
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Yeah, Steinway uses aggressive marketing, which is fine, but there is a certain arrogance about the company that I find distasteful. Also, although Steinway's smaller grands, the O and M as examples, can be very good pianos, on a performance per dollar basis, they don't fare nearly so well.
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Joined: May 2001
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How good at piano are you required to be to consider a rare, expensive, or exotic piano? Can you imagine buying one just for furniture, lol? If it was just for furniture some might say that that person was "superficial". Is that good or bad I don't know. A web search for the word "superficial" comes up with: "The word superficial has to do with appearances and the surface. If a car is in an accident, but it only has a few scratches, you could say it has superficial damage, because the important parts are OK. If you just glance at a movie for a second, your opinion will be more superficial than the opinion of someone who watched the whole film closely. Superficial can have a negative flavor; calling someone superficial is saying that they are shallow and care too little about meaningful things." Does buying a Steinway just for furniture make one superficial? I don't know but it sure seems like a waste of rare and precious wood carved into a beautiful instrument that could otherwise be used by some to make beautiful music. Kind of like buying a Pastrami sandwich at the local deli only to admire it while a homeless man is begging for a meal. But the homeless man can't buy the sandwich anyway so... But no one is stopping anyone from doing anything they want with their hard earned money and people can do whatever they want with it- I agree. Heck I own a pretty nice piano (Shigeru). Who's to say I deserve that or could make the best use of it. It's one of those ethical questions. No, a person who buys a high end piano just for its furniture appeal or just because owning it gives him pleasure is not superficial. As you said "The homeless man can't buy the sandwich". And it's the same for an expensive piano of any make(why just talk about Steinway?) Also, the pastrami sandwich is not something that one would normally buy just- for its aesthetic appeal but a beautiful piano can certainly fall into that category. A beautiful piano that's bought just for furniture appeal (or any reason other than to play it) cannot be used by someone else to make music because that other person cannot buy the Steinway. It's not a waste of a great instrument. In fact, Steinway and other very high end piano makers might not be in existence were it not for those who buy the piano as furniture. If someone buys a piano for its furniture aspect, they are not preventing some "serious" musician from owning it. Plenty of people own things just because they think they're beautiful or have enough money to do so, and they should not be criticized for doing so. Regarding your Shigeru, you don't have to "deserve" it or be able to play it at an extremely high level to justify owning it. If the tone and/or touch and/or appearance gives you pleasure, that's a completely adequate reason. IMO criticizing another person for owning a beautiful piano that they don't play is being arrogant.
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Isn't it elitist already to play classical music on a piano? No!!! The widely-held myth that classical music and opera is "elitist" is doing a lot of damage. Please let us not encourage it!
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There is a certain amount of irony in this topic, in that there have been so many topics on this board by people asking for advice about which piano to buy, which elicit so many responses encouraging people of modest or unknown abilities to consider really rare, expensive, or exotic pianos, even if it is unlikely that the person responding has ever actually tried one. There is plenty of elitism right here! How good at piano are you required to be to consider a rare, expensive, or exotic piano? It depends more on how much money you have.
Semipro Tech
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Living here, in the Peoples' Republic of Berkeley, CA., this thread/conversation sounds too familiar. The 'You can't do this or that because it offends my political fantasies ' crowd, is and always will be in wait. I have a new (+/-) Estonia 210; I play as well as a talented 6 year old. " You don't deserve to have such a piano". Oh ? Tell it to the workers at the Estonia factory...or the S&S factory. Isn't it grand, not to have a clue about how everyone else in this world survives, dreams, imagines the same time/space we all occupy ? I'm sorry, but yes, this thread should have stopped some time ago; it taxes my N.Y.C. spirituality.
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Living here, in the Peoples' Republic of Berkeley, CA., this thread/conversation sounds too familiar. The 'You can't do this or that because it offends my political fantasies ' crowd, is and always will be in wait. I have a new (+/-) Estonia 210; I play as well as a talented 6 year old. " You don't deserve to have such a piano". Oh ? Tell it to the workers at the Estonia factory...or the S&S factory. Isn't it grand, not to have a clue about how everyone else in this world survives, dreams, imagines the same time/space we all occupy ? I'm sorry, but yes, this thread should have stopped some time ago; it taxes my N.Y.C. spirituality. What in the world are you doing in Berkeley? You need to get back to NYC. I served a twenty year sentence in Manhattan. Once, when I was much younger, I dated a girl from Berkeley. She lived down the street from the original Peet’s coffee, if I recall correctly. I asked her to run away to Germany with me, where I had gotten a temporary assignment. She said she didn’t know what to do with her bed, so she didn’t go, lol. Given real estate prices in Cali, how do you afford the space for a grand? I could never swing that in New York and I doubt it would be possible in California. Anyway, everyone should be able to dream as they see fit, buying whatever they want. I don’t find Steinways particularly rare. They build them all the time, and, given the plethora of keyboard options, to say nothing of the number of used pianos on the market, I’m sure Steinway is happy to sell a new piano to anyone who has the cash, no questions asked.
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Joined: May 2021
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Yeah, Steinway uses aggressive marketing, which is fine, but there is a certain arrogance about the company that I find distasteful. Also, although Steinway's smaller grands, the O and M as examples, can be very good pianos, on a performance per dollar basis, they don't fare nearly so well. This is essentially my beef with S&S; they do make some very fine pianos, but they go beyond marketing to shame people who dare to say there are other fine pianos in the world, or that every Steinway did not descend from heaven directly, still dripping with the nectar of the gods (when it's clear that all Steinways are not created equal). But I too think the OP is an incorrect take. They have a product to sell, and are interested in selling it to anyone who can afford it.
Last edited by RobAC; 01/14/22 08:49 AM.
Yamaha S4
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Yeah, Steinway uses aggressive marketing, which is fine, but there is a certain arrogance about the company that I find distasteful. Also, although Steinway's smaller grands, the O and M as examples, can be very good pianos, on a performance per dollar basis, they don't fare nearly so well. What do you mean by they don't fare nearly so well?
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Steinway is not just for the 'rich'. It's priorities. Buy less new cars over 20 years, take fewer vacations and don't buy new iPhones every year and voila, you too can afford a Steinway. If, of course, that's your life priority.
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How good at piano are you required to be to consider a rare, expensive, or exotic piano? Can you imagine buying one just for furniture, lol? If it was just for furniture some might say that that person was "superficial". Is that good or bad I don't know. A web search for the word "superficial" comes up with: "The word superficial has to do with appearances and the surface. If a car is in an accident, but it only has a few scratches, you could say it has superficial damage, because the important parts are OK. If you just glance at a movie for a second, your opinion will be more superficial than the opinion of someone who watched the whole film closely. Superficial can have a negative flavor; calling someone superficial is saying that they are shallow and care too little about meaningful things." Does buying a Steinway just for furniture make one superficial? I don't know but it sure seems like a waste of rare and precious wood carved into a beautiful instrument that could otherwise be used by some to make beautiful music. Kind of like buying a Pastrami sandwich at the local deli only to admire it while a homeless man is begging for a meal. But the homeless man can't buy the sandwich anyway so... But no one is stopping anyone from doing anything they want with their hard earned money and people can do whatever they want with it- I agree. Heck I own a pretty nice piano (Shigeru). Who's to say I deserve that or could make the best use of it. It's one of those ethical questions. No, a person who buys a high end piano just for its furniture appeal or just because owning it gives him pleasure is not superficial. As you said "The homeless man can't buy the sandwich". And it's the same for an expensive piano of any make(why just talk about Steinway?) Also, the pastrami sandwich is not something that one would normally buy just- for its aesthetic appeal but a beautiful piano can certainly fall into that category. A beautiful piano that's bought just for furniture appeal (or any reason other than to play it) cannot be used by someone else to make music because that other person cannot buy the Steinway. It's not a waste of a great instrument. In fact, Steinway and other very high end piano makers might not be in existence were it not for those who buy the piano as furniture. If someone buys a piano for its furniture aspect, they are not preventing some "serious" musician from owning it. Plenty of people own things just because they think they're beautiful or have enough money to do so, and they should not be criticized for doing so. Regarding your Shigeru, you don't have to "deserve" it or be able to play it at an extremely high level to justify owning it. If the tone and/or touch and/or appearance gives you pleasure, that's a completely adequate reason. IMO criticizing another person for owning a beautiful piano that they don't play is being arrogant. Well, I get what you are saying and I don’t want judge people who buy expensive beautiful looking objects. But as a amateur pianist who enjoys fine music I do find it cringeworthy having the knowledge that a beautiful instrument is sitting in someone’s home never to fulfill its purpose- to make beautiful music. I think what what gives a fine instrument it’s preciousness is everything we write about on these boards. Things relative to making music. When it comes to a fine piano it’s things like touch and tone not necessarily case work- which is superficial. It’s touching the surface. If someone wants to own such an object just for furniture by all means buy it but they are buying it for the superficial things that make a piano valuable. But I get your point. The artisans have to make a living so they don’t give a damn. Or do they?
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To be clear it doesn’t bother me at all that people buy expensive objects to enjoy them. Just the thought that some of these objects as a result may never fulfill their purpose. No one will ever hear for example that one of a kind concert grand because it now serves a new purpose as an oversized coffee table.
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I guess what I'm trying to say before I put my foot further in my mouth is that I don't see pianos as luxury items but as instruments designed to fulfill a purpose in the arts. The finer that instrument- the more it costs because of the workmanship and materials put into it. I think some might buy pianos as luxury items ie. fancy furniture because they are expensive items that others cannot afford. It's a status symbol rather than an instrument meant to be used for something- whether that be a child, amateur, or professional concert artist who wants to play the piano.
Last edited by Jethro; 01/14/22 10:42 AM.
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Yeah, Steinway uses aggressive marketing, which is fine, but there is a certain arrogance about the company that I find distasteful. Also, although Steinway's smaller grands, the O and M as examples, can be very good pianos, on a performance per dollar basis, they don't fare nearly so well. What do you mean by they don't fare nearly so well? Although I do find the M to be typically underwhelming (I can think of one rebuilt example I've played in the last decade that was nice) and not a particularly great design, I actually like the current-production model O quite a bit, for a piano of that size. I'm actually having trouble thinking of too many pianos I like better than the O at that size, off the top of my head.
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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