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Word on the street is there's a new sequel planned for 2020 named The hobbit: The isolation of Smaug

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Imagine if Smaug caught ‘Covfefe-19’; he could infect an entire village with just one sneeze (no need for fire). So yes, we need to isolate that Mo’ Fo’! laugh

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I was trying to find something funny to say on this subject, but I came up empty.
Luckily there's always Pete14, ready and waiting to pounce. smile

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Forgot the Soundiron Emotional Piano. It’s on sale now.

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Originally Posted by Fleer
Forgot the Soundiron Emotional Piano. It’s on sale now.
it has no half-pedaling support, and no sympatetic resonances as far as I know.


Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
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Originally Posted by Craig Richards
My suggestion based on your posts above would be the C.Bechstein Digital Grand
I have many software pianos, but since buying this, it has become my go to, especially for solo playing. I bought the essentials first, and was a bit underwhelmed, but figured, in for a penny. I was not disappointed. YMMV. Cheers Mike

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Originally Posted by hes
I don't have an answer for you. But "middle C" is in fact C4, not C5, midi note value of 60.

This is DAW-specific; there are several different competing conventions. Here's a discussion on the FL-Studio website: https://forum.image-line.com/viewtopic.php?t=17363

Another thread on the topic: https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=338513

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Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by U3piano
I think your looking for something that doesn't exist. All libaries i own(ed) so far have their issues.
That's because all instruments have their own issues / personality, naturally, a sampled library reflects that to some degree.

Put a real piano in a real, non optimal/treated room and you will have quite a few issues, hot frequencies due to room modes etc too.

I don't know if I agree. I recently sold my late wife's 1911 Steinway A - she was a classical musician and had it meticulously maintained by one of the best technicians in the Boston area and a few years before she died had the action rebuilt. I now have a Yamaha U 1 and likewise keep it professionally maintained by a great technician. After a good tuning the notes were/are very uniform in quality and volume. Much more than any VST's I've tried so far. So like the OP I don't understand why there's so much lack of uniformity between notes in sampled pianos - I assume they have them tuned and serviced professionally just before the sampling and do their sampling in a controlled environment. I know it's not my sound system, audio card, speakers, headphones, etc, because I don't hear the same inconsistencies in synthesized or modeled instruments.

I'm not fussy about any piano model or type, e.g., Bosie vs Steinway vs Yamaha. I don't want anything "quirky". And I do want full volume envelope (ADSR) control. My PianoTeq 7 Stage is very uniform but lacks ADSR. I want to focus my attention on my music (mostly film scoring) and not get distracted by weird metallic sounds on individual notes when the adjacent notes sound normal.

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Originally Posted by ArtAt
[quote=Granyala] . . .
I'm not fussy about any piano model or type, e.g., Bosie vs Steinway vs Yamaha. I don't want anything "quirky". And I do want full volume envelope (ADSR) control. My PianoTeq 7 Stage is very uniform but lacks ADSR. I want to focus my attention on my music (mostly film scoring) and not get distracted by weird metallic sounds on individual notes when the adjacent notes sound normal.

There's a parallel thread running --

Pianoteq Stage is limited in its sound-shaping capability.

I checked Pianoteq Pro -- it has several parameters ("Soundboard Q","Soundboard Impedance", note-by-note "Attack" setting) that approach ADSR flexibility. The "morphing" and "layering" should let you create a piano pad, if you need one.

I was surprised that a Yamaha MM-series, sample-player synth had ADSR controls for its piano patches. It was neat to find a lightweight board that gave an acoustic-piano-length decay, if you wanted one. (I've forgotten whether it was MM- or MX-series).


. Charles
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
[quote=ArtAt][quote=Granyala] . . .
Pianoteq Stage is limited in its sound-shaping capability.

I checked Pianoteq Pro -- it has several parameters ("Soundboard Q","Soundboard Impedance", note-by-note "Attack" setting) that approach ADSR flexibility. The "morphing" and "layering" should let you create a piano pad, if you need one.

The only way to tell if it has that flexibility is to try it which could be a very expensive proposition if they don't offer a free trial, which they don't seem to.

So I'm still with the OP. it's amazing how many mediocre sampled pianos there are. Given my experience with acoustic pianos it's unclear to me why it's so hard to find a perfectly sampled piano, given that a properly tuned and regulated acoustic piano is well-nigh perfect when the technician is done.

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Originally Posted by ArtAt
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
[quote=ArtAt][quote=Granyala] . . .
Pianoteq Stage is limited in its sound-shaping capability.

I checked Pianoteq Pro -- it has several parameters ("Soundboard Q","Soundboard Impedance", note-by-note "Attack" setting) that approach ADSR flexibility. The "morphing" and "layering" should let you create a piano pad, if you need one.

The only way to tell if it has that flexibility is to try it which could be a very expensive proposition if they don't offer a free trial, which they don't seem to.

So I'm still with the OP. it's amazing how many mediocre sampled pianos there are. Given my experience with acoustic pianos it's unclear to me why it's so hard to find a perfectly sampled piano, given that a properly tuned and regulated acoustic piano is well-nigh perfect when the technician is done.

As noted in the other thread, pianoteq standard offers these controls, and there is an trial of standard. The only advantage to pianoteq pro over standard is that it allows you to edit these physical parameters on a per-note basis rather than applying it to the entire model. That said, standard still offers per note adjusent of pitch, attack envelope, and volume.

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VI Labs Modern U is as close as you can get to owning a real piano, but it's an upright, not a grand.

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I tried many piano VSTs
My favorites so far are:

1. Garritan CFX. A bit too wet, but you get used to it quickly. Good dynamics. You can make notes jump out when you press them hard. I have trouble doing this with most other VSTs. Amazing sympathetic resonance.

2. Ravenscroft 275. Similar to Garritan. Slightly more dry. Lower notes are a bit dark sounding, but for some pieces that works well. You have to play with the settings for a few hours/days before it will sound good. It's not as good out of the box as Garritan CFX. Good sympathetic resonance.

3. Keyscape. Very woody sounding and even sounding. Higher notes don't sound metalic. Hard to get good dynamics out of it. Sometimes it glitches on my PC.

4. Pianoteq. I like Steinway D. Lacks "magic" but it feels very good on your fingers when you play.

5. Modern U. High notes sound too metalic and thin. No dynamics. The best recorded samples from any piano I've heared to date. Sounds very natural. Has some kind of "magic"

6. Galaxy II - Vintage D. Very nice dry sound. Slightly metalic on the higher notes, but barely noticable.

7. Galaxy II - Steinway. Sounds similar to Vintage D. Stereo image sounds slightly weird.

8. True keys American. Nice dry recording with not too much room ambience. Sounds slightly muffled. Lacks "magic"

9. The Maveric. Very woody sounding. Nice dry sound. Used to be my favourite piano, but now I preffer Garritan and Ravenscroft.

10. Noire. Sounds way too dark, but works very well in some of pieces.

11. C Bechstein. Had it for a while, but didn't bother to adjust the settings. I recently played around with the settings and realised you can get a good sound out of it. Pianoteq Bechstein sounds slightly better to me.

12. Mercury. Higher notes sound a bit metalic. Bass is slightly too loud.

13. Walker 1955 Steinway D. Sounds amazing. It sounds the most magical from all the pianos. But its totally unplayable.


The following all sound too thin and metalic on the top notes:
Arturia Pianos
Hammersmith
Pearl
Hamz Zimmer Piano
Fazioli Ebony

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I will say that with the Noire, adjusting the 'color' knob works wonders for making it not sound too dark. I used to flat out disliked the sound of the Noire because it seemed like a muddy mess I use it around 17% and it sounds just right to me now, in combination with using the 'hard' velocity curve, which actually makes it a bit lighter.

I normally avoid those types of sample-shifting controls on other pianos, but on the Noire it sounds very natural. The main thing preventing me from using it more now is that I wish I had more control over the velocity curve, rather than a few presets. Even after the color shifting, theres a nice amount of ppp-mp dynamics, which surprised me. But with 'hard' velocity curve, I find it jumps from mp to f+ too fast. While the linear curve is too dull. Noire is the only piano I've used that requires a convex curve from my px-560. Perhaps because.

I agree that the Embertone has a magic to it. I keep on returning to it when I want to actually record something as opposed to practice, because it just sounds so good. I do think I've worked out a nice playability from it, but the problem is that in the pp-ish dynamic range, the key-off noises are much too loud, and there's no way to turn them down without turning down the release samples altogether (well, maybe you can in the full Kontakt). But turning down release samples then kills some of the character and realism, especially when not using the pedal.

The c Bechstein is sampled and programmed very well, but I've not managed to get the basic sound to my liking. It always sounds a bit too hollow to me, and sometimes samples seem to fade out a little weirdly. It's also annoying that adjusting the dynamic range seems to adjust which samples are pulled from. Also, the Bechstein essentials actually sounds better to me for some reason than the full thing but it is not as playable or customizable.

The Garritan is so close to a 'perfect' sampled piano, but the caveat is that it's then a bit too boring. This is less of an issue for technically impressive pieces than for quieter, more exposed pieces where having some character is useful.

The ravenscroft is still my personal favorite sampled piano. It's about as pristine as the Garritan, but somehow still has plenty of character, I think because the release samples are done so well. It just doesn't growl or have quite as much dynamic range in the bass as the Garritan, but I've seen a couple of comments that suggest this might be a quality of the actual ravenscroft piano itself. To me it sounds better out of the box than the Garritan, although I agree the low end can get a little muddy and sometimes it sounds a little compressed in more exposed, quiet passages.

The Modern U is probably what I'd consider the 'best' sampled piano on the market right now. It does everything right for the instrument sampled, and I think there's only some nitpicking left to improve. It's just an upright and naturally doesn't have the dynamic range or tone of the grands (I personally much prefer the tone of the bosendorfer upright). Playability is practically perfect out of the box for me.

The VSL pianos are the next 'best'. The sound is great and highly adjustable, I just feel like the velocity mapping feels off with pppplplpppppppllllllllllzdmost instruments, despite having been done with a robot. On the 280VC and Steinway especially (and a bit less so with the imperial), I feel I need a rather concave velocity curve for the best playability, but I don't think its just my keyboard; when I'm playing in the region marked 'pp' it often "sounds* more like p-mp. I figure maybe the pianos themselves just have a cold sound, but it still feels unrealistic compared to most other VSTs out of the box.

On the other hand, the Bluthner and bosendorfer upright are practically perfect in terms of touch response out of the box for me. With both of these, I use the built in note editor to gradually increase the volume of the bass notes, making them sound a little more like a modern grand.

The wavesfactory mercury surprised me with how good it sounds for only 8 velocity layers. However I feel the round robins are not great; I'd expect a small change in a repeated velocity but instead it's rather dramatic. It also doesn't have repedaling which makes it a no-go for me as a primary piano (it does have half pedaling though).

Pianoteq continues to be great and version 7.5 was a surprise leap in sound quality. I think the Bechstein probably sounds the most realistic overall.

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Originally Posted by ArtAt
So I'm still with the OP. it's amazing how many mediocre sampled pianos there are. Given my experience with acoustic pianos it's unclear to me why it's so hard to find a perfectly sampled piano, given that a properly tuned and regulated acoustic piano is well-nigh perfect when the technician is done.

Having recently been on a similar quest, I would concur with karoloydi that your best bets are probably either the Garritan CFX or Ravenscroft 275, especially if you are looking for something that is technically pristine.

Both pianos are perfectly tuned and regulated, sound extremely even across range of the keyboard, and offer the highest level of playability and responsiveness. The Garritan has more space and atmosphere, while the Ravenscroft has the clearest, cleanest sound of any virtual piano I've tried. Some actually find it too clean and sterile for their taste (I love it) so try listening to some online samples to get an idea if you like the sound before purchasing. Both are highly customizable, the Ravenscroft possibly a bit more so.

Noire is also excellent if you want more character and a darker tone, but doesn't quite match the other two in terms of technical perfection and playability, though it's quite close.

I only VST I really couldn't get on with was the Embertone Walker D. No matter how much I fiddled with the velocity and dynamic curves, I could never get a satisfactory level of responsiveness and playability. Switching to it after the Garritan and Ravenscroft just felt dead under my fingers. I also had issues with the tone in the upper mid-section, which was wobbly almost to the point of sounding out of tune. Also incredibly poorly implemented in terms of engineering - this thing gobbled up CPU like no other VST I'd ever tried, and I'm running it on a fairly recent Mac desktop w/ 32 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD. I returned it after a few days.

If you want something w/ a little more vintage character, but still good playability I think the NI Maverick is excellent.

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I'm thinking of getting modern U VI labs, previously didn't get on with ravenscroft 275 though, just found it less playable than garritan CFX and i just didn't enjoy playing it. If I'm honest I'm just a bit sick of garritan as it's boring and not rich enough for my liking. From listening to modern U demos on YouTube I'm already sold and as long as its playable like garritan I think I'd be happy. To me the modern U sounds incredibly rich and accurate and sounds very playable and fun. I'd be very interested in people's opinions on it though and whether it's worth the money, it's on sale right now also.

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Originally Posted by Alex C
VI Labs Modern U is as close as you can get to owning a real piano, but it's an upright, not a grand.

Hello,

Amen to that!

Cheers and the happiest playing,

HZ

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There are some great reviews of a wide range of vsts in the previous few posts - thanks to those people.


Originally Posted by mwf
I'm thinking of getting modern U VI labs, previously didn't get on with ravenscroft 275 though, just found it less playable than garritan CFX and i just didn't enjoy playing it. If I'm honest I'm just a bit sick of garritan as it's boring and not rich enough for my liking. From listening to modern U demos on YouTube I'm already sold and as long as its playable like garritan I think I'd be happy. To me the modern U sounds incredibly rich and accurate and sounds very playable and fun. I'd be very interested in people's opinions on it though and whether it's worth the money, it's on sale right now also.

I've got the garritan, and recently got pianoteq on sale. i also, more recently, got the modern u on sale due to the weight of positive reviews here and elsewhere, and also because i like the demos etc on YouTube etc. to be honest I've hardly used it so far, but i feel like I've got three distinct but very good vsts that cover a variety of uses and bases, and i think that's worth considering when purchasing (or not) the modern u

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Originally Posted by Longest Username
Eighty Eight Ensemble - Overall piano sounds not that 'good' compared to Garritan or Ivory... little soft and muddy for my taste.

Thanks. That's the first time I've heard of this VST. It has it's flaws, but it sounds better than some other more popular VSTs.

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