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EDV #3179649 12/23/21 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by EDV
Okay, so I guess the 7 ' long Yamaha CF6 would be as big as I'd want a baby grand in my place. I have to admit I am more keen on Kawai and Fazioli though wink
Part of the confusion on this thread is your use of baby grand on your first post(and this one) which generally refers to a MUCH smaller instruments. A 7' piano is generally called a semi-concert grand.

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Originally Posted by EDV
I've been seeing the Fazioli join the selected few brands that get played at major piano competitions and concerts, so I'm curious now. Maybe it's even better than Yamaha CFX and Shigeru Kawai SK-EX ?

As previous posts in this thread imply, no piano is better than all others in every respect. Bruce Liu won Chopin 2021 on a Fazioli 308, but listening to his performance on a CFX in the preliminaries you might think he would have triumphed on any of the instruments on offer.

I thought the Shigeru outclassed the Fazioli in the opening bars of Polonaise-Fantasy in A flat major, Op. 61 when Gadjiev and Armellini played it in the third stage (still available Gadjiev, Armellini).

Pipe dreaming, I think it would be between a Shigeru and a Bosendorfer, and if available a Steingraeber. If I wanted to emulate Sorita I'd thrown in a few Steinways.


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Originally Posted by EDV
Thanks for the advice people ! There are pianists who swear by the Yamahas ( especially CFX and CF4 of course ), even ranking them higher than the Steinways but I've heard some experts say that the weighted action of the keys is heavier on Yamahas ( even on the digitals ), therefore it takes a lot more to get those triple fortissimos. Can anyone confirm this ?

The bigger the piano, the more space you need; not just to fit in the piano but also to give enough room for the powerful bass to develop. A piano of 180 to 190 cm has plenty enough of bass for any normal size room. Besides Yamaha, Kawai and Fazioli, there are wonderful pianos in that size range. The Bechstein 192, Bluthner model 6 (I have one) or Sauter Delta are all great pianos. The Yamaha 6 and the Kawai are good pianos in that range but IMO not at the same level. Fazioli has a different voicing which is quite peculiar. At the end you have to like the touch of the keys and the voicing of the piano.


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Originally Posted by BDB
Why would you need a triple fortissimo in a home environment? Save it for the 3000 seat auditoriums without amplification.

Good point. The OP might be surprised at how loud the average grand is in a home environment when on full stick. Many people find their grands too loud, and search for various forms of damping to tame the volume.

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In the 7' size class, you are able to get more of a cut-down version of the concert grands with generally the same quality of materials and craftsmanship. This would be true of the SK-6 or F212 or Steinway B or CF6 as well as for other makes.

The list of revered ~7' grands is not short. I would add:
Bösendorfer 214 Vienna Concert
Estonia L210
Grotrian G-208 (formerly called Charis)
Seiler SE208

Others that I could recommend that we don't represent include:
Steingraeber 212
Mason & Hamlin BB
Schimmel K219 (or previous K213)

Others I could mention by reputation but have limited personal experience with the specific models include:
Blüthner
C. Bechstein
August Förster
Sauter

The 7' class is one of the most crowded segments with truly excellent examples from the variety of premium makers. If I was in the market for one of those pianos, I'd want to try at least 6-8 different brands. If you go up to ~7'6" you'd add another dozen amazing instruments from the variety of makers.


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EDV #3179675 12/23/21 07:10 PM
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Well all 3 groups of Fines ratings (performance pianos)would be great.I have tried a Shigeru,Schimmel Konzert and Fazioli piano (6ft at least) all 3 sounded really really nice.The Schimmel Konzert and the Fazioli were my favorites.They both had a wonderful clarity of sound.Estonia is another excellent instrument to try.
It is important to try a number of pianos a few times before you come to a decision.
https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/a-map-of-the-market-for-new-pianos-ratings/

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What brands are available to audition in Australia?


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EDV #3179718 12/24/21 12:09 AM
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EDV, have you considered using your Kawai CA98 to drive some virtual piano software on a computer? If your dissatisfaction with the CA98 is related to the samples it uses, maybe this could be a solution which also avoids the challenges of:
1.) affording a concert grand, and
2.) fitting it in your house. wink
There's typically a link to Pianoteq's virtual piano software in one of the advertisements on the sidebar of this forum. The free demo has a couple of notes disabled and I think you have to restart it every 20 minutes.


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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Everything else being equal, a large piano, especially a concert grand, will be superior to shorter models from that company due to the inherent benefits of length.

But a completely separate issue is if the build quality of shorter models of Shigeru, CF, and Fazioli is inferior to their concert sized instrument. One poster near the beginning of the thread suggested that, but I think that statement is wrong. And those shorter pianos are definitely not budget models(implying lower quality) as that poster suggested.

For sure, when we are talking about six or seven foot grands there are models available in their high quality ranges from everyone. Just not for the small baby grands.

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Originally Posted by gwing
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Everything else being equal, a large piano, especially a concert grand, will be superior to shorter models from that company due to the inherent benefits of length.

But a completely separate issue is if the build quality of shorter models of Shigeru, CF, and Fazioli is inferior to their concert sized instrument. One poster near the beginning of the thread suggested that, but I think that statement is wrong. And those shorter pianos are definitely not budget models(implying lower quality) as that poster suggested.

For sure, when we are talking about six or seven foot grands there are models available in their high quality ranges from everyone. Just not for the small baby grands.
Do you really think the smallest Fazioli(5'2", I believe) or smallest Shigeru(under 6') are low quality or any significant lower quality than their 7' grands or even their concert grands? I think that's completely false and those are the pianos the OP was talking about. Nor are they budget grands as you implied.

You are probably thinking of some piano makers who have many lines within their brand and where their smallest and cheapest grands are meant as budget models and are of lesser quality than their larger and/or more expensive lines. The Yamaha G series would be an example of that. None of that applies to the Yamaha CF, Shigeru, or Fazioli.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by EDV
Okay, so I guess the 7 ' long Yamaha CF6 would be as big as I'd want a baby grand in my place. I have to admit I am more keen on Kawai and Fazioli though wink
Part of the confusion on this thread is your use of baby grand on your first post(and this one) which generally refers to a MUCH smaller instruments. A 7' piano is generally called a semi-concert grand.
Agreed! A seven foot piano is no baby. Typically baby grands are only around 5' long and suffer from diminished bass and other problems due to the compromises necessary to keep it that short. A piano around six feet long is called a parlor grand (anything from 5' 10" to 6 and a half feet). Longer than that is a semi-concert grand (typically from just under seven feet to seven and a half). It baffles me why people call any non-concert grand a baby unless they just don't know better.


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Originally Posted by Roy123
The OP might be surprised at how loud the average grand is in a home environment when on full stick. Many people find their grands too loud, and search for various forms of damping to tame the volume.
Can confirm. The sound of my 168 cm baby grand ricocheting off block walls and (fake) hardwood floors on concrete was so loud it hurt. 1/4" thick felt pads under rugs dampen it surprisingly well.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Part of the confusion on this thread is your use of baby grand on your first post(and this one) which generally refers to a MUCH smaller instruments. A 7' piano is generally called a semi-concert grand.

This is a problem. 'Baby' grand is generally pianos smaller than, say, 5'8" - but the term is regularly mis-used.

A 7' to 7'6" grand such as the Shigeru SK6, SK7 would be good things for you to test. Travel to a larger city when you are ready to go and start playing pianos!


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It's been awhile since I posted. But I think I can add to this. I have a concert grand and I had to add area rugs in the center of the room, under the piano and under the bench. Some of the furniture like the sofa absorbs sound too. I am pretty sure a model B or other similar size grand would also need the rugs in my room which are over a wood floor. I have no regrets having a concert grand I love the strong bass and clear sound of the upper range. I like Steinway but I know some prefer sounds from the other brands. I would not say they are wrong. I think Oscar Petersen preferred the Bosie because of the purer sound that doesn't linger. Perfect for his style. Also the Bosie has a way of letting you express emotion which seems to me a bit unique. I think the Fazioli is somewhat similar in that way. The Shiguro has a unique sound, you can hear it on Sangah Noona's You Tubes. I see that most of the great piano brands have been mentioned. In the 7 foot range I think a Mason BB should be considered. In Australia you have the opportunity to try a Stewart. I can't comment on those, never even seen one.

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Originally Posted by LJC
It's been awhile since I posted. But I think I can add to this. I have a concert grand and I had to add area rugs in the center of the room, under the piano and under the bench. Some of the furniture like the sofa absorbs sound too. I am pretty sure a model B or other similar size grand would also need the rugs in my room which are over a wood floor. I have no regrets having a concert grand I love the strong bass and clear sound of the upper range. I like Steinway but I know some prefer sounds from the other brands. I would not say they are wrong. I think Oscar Petersen preferred the Bosie because of the purer sound that doesn't linger. Perfect for his style. Also the Bosie has a way of letting you express emotion which seems to me a bit unique. I think the Fazioli is somewhat similar in that way. The Shiguro has a unique sound, you can hear it on Sangah Noona's You Tubes. I see that most of the great piano brands have been mentioned. In the 7 foot range I think a Mason BB should be considered. In Australia you have the opportunity to try a Stewart. I can't comment on those, never even seen one.

LJC!!

Great to "see" you here, Brother!

I agree with all that you stated. And you are totally correct. If the OP lives in Australia then he is doing himself a disservice if he does not at least play a Stuart & Sons. I hope you are well, LJC. Don't be a stranger.

Yours,


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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by gwing
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Everything else being equal, a large piano, especially a concert grand, will be superior to shorter models from that company due to the inherent benefits of length.

But a completely separate issue is if the build quality of shorter models of Shigeru, CF, and Fazioli is inferior to their concert sized instrument. One poster near the beginning of the thread suggested that, but I think that statement is wrong. And those shorter pianos are definitely not budget models(implying lower quality) as that poster suggested.

For sure, when we are talking about six or seven foot grands there are models available in their high quality ranges from everyone. Just not for the small baby grands.
Do you really think the smallest Fazioli(5'2", I believe) or smallest Shigeru(under 6') are low quality or any significant lower quality than their 7' grands or even their concert grands? I think that's completely false and those are the pianos the OP was talking about. Nor are they budget grands as you implied.

You are probably thinking of some piano makers who have many lines within their brand and where their smallest and cheapest grands are meant as budget models and are of lesser quality than their larger and/or more expensive lines. The Yamaha G series would be an example of that. None of that applies to the Yamaha CF, Shigeru, or Fazioli.

I thought I had clarified this, but let me try again. The OP was asking about baby grands and specifically for Yamaha,Kawai and Fazioli models. Yamaha do not offer their top CF model in a baby grand size, neither do Kawai offer their top Shigeru models as babies but only in their larger pianos. The baby grands Yamaha and Kawai offer are nice enough pianos at the price point they are targeted at but not the same quality as their top ranges. I don't know specifically for Fazioli what quality their smallest model is built to as I haven't either inspected or listened to one. Hopefully I don't have to try and clarify my comment further?

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The problem is the use of the. Term ‘baby grand’, without any definition of the length. That should have either been defined by the OP or the question asked of him so that everyone was discussing the same set of pianos. It looks from later posts that he is including 7 ft grands as a baby grand.

Last edited by dogperson; 12/27/21 08:18 AM.

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Although the OP's unfamiliarity with concert grands and their baby siblings was clearly stated in the OP, the choice of the siblings available to audition in striking distance of the OP's abode is unclear.

Were all the models in this thread on offer, I would certainly consider a Mason BB but I would probably choose between a Steingraeber and an August Forster. Otherwise I would go for the versatility of Shigeru rather than the constraints of a Fazioli.


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Not sure if this interview about the very first Fazioli piano has come up before. Long on questionss and short on answers, we learn Faziolis improve with age:



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Having a piano fit a room isn't just about the physical space. I have a 6'3" Kawai GX in a small living room and it overpowers it. It is hard to control the dynamics in more energetic music. A slightly smaller piano would probably be a better fit acoustically for me. But the next size down was not actually going to be any cheaper when I got my GX-3 because the store got a good deal on it that they weren't getting on their GX-2 and so, since of course larger is better, I got larger. I have added some rugs and wall hangings to try and control the sound, but what I really need to do is move it farther from the wall, but there really isn't space to do that. I probably would have been better off with the GX-2 even if it cost the same. But these are not baby grands, neither are they concert sized.

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