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#3177601 12/15/21 12:34 AM
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Well, you know how some people say they cannot sing, and turns out, they are right?

That one girl that has not been doing ANY work/practice/no response from parents/nothing may actually be tone deaf, physically, and societally.

She managed to eek out her single melody line only Up on the Housetop for recital, but it was...only marginally ok.

At her next lesson, she expressed wonder that so many other students played two, or even three pieces!

however, what floored me was this comment-

"it seems like the other students did not practice enough because they had a big wrist lift and then had to start again, like they did not know their music."

I had asked audience to hold applause till student bows/curtsies, for time's sake. But, after piece one, do a wrist lift, reset and then play piece
two, and another wrist lift before piece three.

This girl only did one piece, so only one big wrist lift.

And she had the assumption that each wrist lift meant a re-start? I'm flabbergasted! I had the most ever positive and wonderful reports this year, and am still smiling from how well all the recitals went!

Everyone had a program. She can read.

I'm stunned. I did not even process what she meant until after we had parted ways.

And now I am coming here, to ask, is she really that clueless? Did she not hear that another piece had begun?

She said so happily, like, she was glad others supposedly messed up. And, she was quite pleased with her performance. (Mom did not attend, said she had health reasons that hit that afternoon.)

I will see her once before Christmas break.

As far as lessons, she is still struggling with saying 7 letters in reverse, let alone being able to locate and play on the piano. She can sometimes march steady quarters. Still confusion on left and right hands, let alone mixing up 4's and 2's finger numbers. And, literally, NOTHING done each week. I have not-so-subtly placed post-it notes with directions over work to do, and they are not moved even a millimeter. I a surprised she remembers to bring her music bag each week.

And, I cannot fire her- her slot is paid for and reserved for the full academic year, contract deal with the school. So, I am a very well-paid music babysitter, I guess!

Seriously, I have taught pre-schoolers, non-reading students, ESL students, students with an auditory processing disorder, students with autism, and just plain old "I don't want to take piano" students, and they have done much more and better than her!

It's maddening, yet somehow amusing.

Not sure what you can respond to, but maybe share any crazy story?

Merry Christmas!


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How does she do with her other, non-music classes?


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I am picturing a cheerful, good natured, clueless student who will never make much progress nor care.

I would enjoy her while you have her and try not to stress out over it. You likely have plenty of high maintenance students.


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Did you check her aural skills?

Here in the UK, all music students have to learn them for their exams, and if a child can sing a note (not necessarily right on pitch but near it) you play or sing that is within her vocal range, she cannot be tone deaf, but may need help to develop her aural skills. Check her sense of rhythm too.

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My advice would be to assume that she does the best she can, and to give up all ambitions about what she should learn. Instead, try to design simple lessons for her that are enjoyable for both of you. Play duets, sing, let her clap her hands. And she may surprise you. Or not.


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Originally Posted by Stubbie
How does she do with her other, non-music classes?
That's what I'm wondering too!

I have students who don't practice except the once a week when they're with me, yet a number have stayed on for years. They must be getting value out of it, even though I know they have untapped potential in terms of progress of skills.

I had a pair of string sibling students who may have had some degree of tone deafness (they didn't sing in tune either) and I didn't fully realize it until the older one got to a certain point in the learning progression. This is much less of an issue for piano though where intonation isn't the player's problem.

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How old is this student?

If she listens to you play, can she tell if you are playing Jingle Bells (or whatever) or Up on the Housetop (or whatever)?


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. . . And, I cannot fire her- her slot is paid for and reserved for the full academic year, contract deal with the school. So, I am a very well-paid music babysitter, I guess!

There are worse things than doing "supervised practice", and getting paid for it. It's not ideal (you're a teacher, and teachers get a lot of rewards from having students who learn easily), but it seems that you have a pre-packaged pot of students. Some are better, some are worse.

The issue of "tone-deafness" is one I find interesting. As I've learned to sing, I know my discrimination of fine pitch differences has improved. But it's not nearly as good as my choir director's, or my singing teacher. We live on a sliding scale of sensitivity -- education can help, but it's not everything. My wife has 30 years of experience as a commercial artist, and an exquisite sense of color. I couldn't develop that; I don't care enough about it to put in the work.

My granddaughter was having some trouble with school recorder lessons, and my daughter was thinking in terms of "tone deafness". When I visited, I asked to hear her play. After about two minutes, I said:

. . . "She's not tone deaf".

. . . "How do you know?"

. . . "She knows when she's made a mistake. So she can tell the difference between the right note, and the one she played."

If your student can't do that, there's a prof I've heard on the radio, who works with people who think they're "tone deaf". He starts by teaching them pitch comparison ("This note is higher-pitched than that note"), and slowly develops their sense of pitch:

. . . Most of them progress, some don't.

On the other extreme, I've heard of a Morse code instructor, who starts training by demonstrating:

. . . "This is a dit (short tone), and this is a dah (same pitch, long tone). Who thinks they sound exactly the same?"

. . . "OK -- everyone who raised your hand, you're out of the class."

You're taking more trouble with this kid, than most teachers would. You don't know what the payoff will be, down the road. It could be that what you do now, might encourage her to give her own very talented kid piano lessons, rather than saying:

. . . "I hated piano lessons, and I don't think you need them."


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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
The issue of "tone-deafness" is one I find interesting. As I've learned to sing, I know my discrimination of fine pitch differences has improved. But it's not nearly as good as my choir director's, or my singing teacher. We live on a sliding scale of sensitivity -- education can help, but it's not everything. My wife has 30 years of experience as a commercial artist, and an exquisite sense of color. I couldn't develop that; I don't care enough about it to put in the work.

This is so true. Not just for music but anything you can learn in life. The young brain (even the older brain) is plastic. Things can be learnt. It might be harder for some but you just have to put in more effort. I remember discussing this with a Chinese maths professor over a social dinner once. He was bemused that in the UK some teachers felt that maths was something some kids just weren't good at and were lost causes. He told me that in Singapore where he grew up, every child was taught maths with the understanding that every child could learn it with enough practice.

Are all kids going to be world class some day? No but every child (who has a normal brain) can learn the basics if there are adults who persevere long enough.

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Sometime ago I was invited to a party. 3 kids sat in front of a piano with a piece of sheet music with 4 lines. The music came from a teacher who decided it's at an appropriate level for them and assumed to be at the beginner / lower intermediate level. They had music lessons for about a year. For an hour they took turns trying to decipher the notes but not one could get even the first line of the song. Seems odd that after a year of lessons their reading would be so inadequate. 3 scientists working on the same problem would look at it from different angles and come up with a solution (collaborative effort). In this case seemed like all 3 kids had the same problems and their joint effort couldn't come up with anything.

Their father learned piano before and passed conservatory grade levels. He hasn't touched piano for years and offered no help. The kids do come from a musical family because the father had lessons (technically speaking).

In your case the kid may have a medical condition call "Amusia". People with this condition can't recognize sound pitches but it's not going to affect learning in other subjects like math. Can't say for sure a kid who can't tell a performer who played different pieces than restarting the same piece has the condition. At this point the kid is far behind the reading & playing ability of others. The best you can do is to focus on 1 thing at a time. I wasn't a good reader in the beginning but have a good memory. I'd listen to songs on recordings and reproduce them by ear. You can probably get the kid to learn a few easy songs without sheet music by following you as you play. You put a finger on an A and he/she would put the same finger on the same note. Start with pieces where the LH & RH alternate playing 1 note at a time. Leave the pieces with overlapping notes for later. Right now it's just copying finger sequences to reproduce songs. Introduce reading when you feel he/she is ready. Getting the kid to say the letter names of the notes may be expecting too much at this point.

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Thanks for the thoughtful responses!

I have done some simple ear training with her, with not the best results. (high/low or moving up or down by steps) I had her sing her own recital song and it was...mildly painful.

She was confused on which side of the piano is the high side, so I switched to choir director and we both stood up and I did motions of three levels,
top. (head height)
middle (chest height)
low / bottom (tummy height)
very obvious and distinct three areas)

She struggles with Hot Cross Buns, even though I was saying "top middle bottom. top middle bottom," words and motions.
I had her sing it and she was monotone.

She does not seem to know when she makes a mistake.

Two of the first pieces I give are Mary Had a Little Lamb and Jingle Bells. While I have not tested her to see if she can recognize which is which, I will use that next time. But her playing is almost unrecognizable.

I have tried tapping echo patterns and she is right only sometimes. 3-4 taps at a time, not tricky.

Marching is difficult her her- she can usually match step with me, but when I add clapping on the quarters (one clap per step) she is lost.

And, this 8 year old missed class this week- mom said she was sick. She had a math test (says she is not good at math) and an art class party with her friends (so I guess she really was sick- who wants to miss a party?)

Kicker-
I ran into dad who was picking up brother, and had a short talk with him. (Recognized him from recital.)

Showed him a page I had prepared for her and mentioned how she needs someone to help her during the week.

"Yeah, we have been really busy lately."
"She needs more time to learn than other students, and does not learn from reading."

"That's ok," I said, "I teach visually, auditory, kinesthetically, and I use various methods depending on the child. What can you tell me to help her?"
Um...
"I need to go get my son."

The moment I was listing different teaching methods, he tensed a bit, and then turned away.

Yes, it was not the moment for a conference, but it was the first time I had a parent in sight!

Anyway, I will not have her again until January.

Yes, I will continue on with her, doing as much as I can during lesson, using horizontal learning (many pages and songs of the same concept, presented different ways) as opposed to vertical learning (onward and upward once a concept is understood)

And, I will keep smiling.


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Looks like the kid comes from a non-musical family. The parents probably know next to nothing about piano to offer support at home. At the end of the term, you can probably suggest to the parents their daughter is not making progress and they should find something else more suitable as an extracurricular activity. You're doing your best to teach her music and the parents only wanted you to be around as a babysitter.

At the moment, there is not a lot you haven't tried. Unless you can get 1 of the parents to attend a lesson, they're not going to know their daughter is not learning very much. I met parents who enrolled their kids in piano and they're more involved making sure their kids practice scales and repertoire pieces at home. Not all the students made progress and some quit early.

I was a slow learner at age 5. Mom got me a teacher for a few lessons and decided the piano wasn't for me. I played violin for a while and restarted piano at age 35 and have been practicing an hour a day since. After a few lessons you can tell whether a person has the talent for music and the piano is the right fit. In your case, I don't think the kid has any talent for music. Her hearing may be an issue. In the future don't expect her to continue playing piano or another instrument.

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Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
Looks like the kid comes from a non-musical family. The parents probably know next to nothing about piano to offer support at home. At the end of the term, you can probably suggest to the parents their daughter is not making progress and they should find something else more suitable as an extracurricular activity. You're doing your best to teach her music and the parents only wanted you to be around as a babysitter.

At the moment, there is not a lot you haven't tried. Unless you can get 1 of the parents to attend a lesson, they're not going to know their daughter is not learning very much. I met parents who enrolled their kids in piano and they're more involved making sure their kids practice scales and repertoire pieces at home. Not all the students made progress and some quit early.

I was a slow learner at age 5. Mom got me a teacher for a few lessons and decided the piano wasn't for me. I played violin for a while and restarted piano at age 35 and have been practicing an hour a day since. After a few lessons you can tell whether a person has the talent for music and the piano is the right fit. In your case, I don't think the kid has any talent for music. Her hearing may be an issue. In the future don't expect her to continue playing piano or another instrument.

I'm not sure we have enough information to say the family is non-musical. As for "talent," that may be, but my take on the conversation with the family is that there might be some learning disabilities, and that the parents are in denial or don't know how to deal with it:
Originally Posted by missbelle
....Kicker-
I ran into dad who was picking up brother, and had a short talk with him. (Recognized him from recital.)

Showed him a page I had prepared for her and mentioned how she needs someone to help her during the week.

"Yeah, we have been really busy lately."
"She needs more time to learn than other students, and does not learn from reading."

"That's ok," I said, "I teach visually, auditory, kinesthetically, and I use various methods depending on the child. What can you tell me to help her?"
Um...
"I need to go get my son."

The moment I was listing different teaching methods, he tensed a bit, and then turned away.....


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Many times, the little apples fall right next to the tree.

I have occasionally kept myself engaged when working with puzzling kids by taking notes and pondering what I would write about them in a case study. I never have followed through and written anything, but it has been a good way for me to avoid frustration.


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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
My granddaughter was having some trouble with school recorder lessons, and my daughter was thinking in terms of "tone deafness". When I visited, I asked to hear her play. After about two minutes, I said:

. . . "She's not tone deaf".

. . . "How do you know?"

. . . "She knows when she's made a mistake. So she can tell the difference between the right note, and the one she played."

When my kids were in elementary school, they were in a challenged district. They were the only children in the school who did not qualify for free lunch (which they got anyway, as it was just too much trouble to take money from two people) and that year they were the only two children with two parents. The school asked two dollars to buy cheap recorders for music class, but no other children could come up with it, so the music teacher was going to cancel class. I bought inexpensive but decent Yamaha plastic recorders for the whole class just so they could have it.

Unfortunately I bought the standard fingering, and the music teacher was only familiar with the simplified German fingering that doesn't use forked fingerings. It was painful to hear my young one practice, playing that horribly out of tune F. She did hear wrong notes, but did not hear how out of tune that note was. And when I suggested putting down another finger or two, she replied indignantly, "no, Daddy, teacher says!"

At least she always sang in tune.


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misbelle, I have a student very similar to yours, and it's truly driving me up a wall. i was about to make my own thread and i may soon.

i've had this girl for at least four months now, her parents sit in on nearly every lesson and she hasn't made a single lick of progress. her timing/rhythm is still just as bad as when she walked in, when she reads she will still often make the mistake of going up when she needs to go down, she still uses way too much wrist and takes her fingers off the keys even though i've spent a *lot* of time correcting her with these things and her parents have even mentioned it. today she came to me with away in a manger from the faber pre-reading book, her dad claiming she had spent a bunch of time practicing it, and she couldn't play it worth a damn. we're still not even at reading the staff in the faber book, because i don't see the point when she can't even do pre-reading. i have other students her age who, even if they don't practice during the week (and i can tell of course), we're still able to make progress during the lesson and proceed by at least a page, maybe two. with her, absolutely no progress is made and i have to cut my losses and basically say to myself "okay, you still play it like [censored], guess we'll go back and look at an easy piece again"

she just seems utterly clueless and frankly not all that bright. i teach at a little private instruction school and have brought this to the attention of the owners. i've tried to pawn her off on other teachers who are maybe better equipped to deal with it, but i think our schedules conflict. i just don't know. I want this nightmare to stop. It sure as [censored] ain't worth the pay. I want to talk to the parents but really never have an opportunity, as I'd rather not say all this (although i'd be much more tactful of course) around the young one herself. I'm flabbergasted at how clueless her parents are.

Last edited by CodySean; 12/23/21 01:59 AM.

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Originally Posted by CodySean
...i have to cut my losses and basically say to myself "okay, you still play it like [censored], guess we'll go back and look at an easy piece again"

she just seems utterly clueless and frankly not all that bright. i teach at a little private instruction school and have brought this to the attention of the owners. i've tried to pawn her off on other teachers who are maybe better equipped to deal with it, but i think our schedules conflict. i just don't know. I want this nightmare to stop. It sure as [censored] ain't worth the pay. I want to talk to the parents but really never have an opportunity, as I'd rather not say all this (although i'd be much more tactful of course) around the young one herself. I'm flabbergasted at how clueless her parents are.
I think you need to find a way to not teach this student anymore--for the student's sake. Your attitude toward her seems pretty toxic, to be honest.


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Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by CodySean
...i have to cut my losses and basically say to myself "okay, you still play it like [censored], guess we'll go back and look at an easy piece again"

she just seems utterly clueless and frankly not all that bright. i teach at a little private instruction school and have brought this to the attention of the owners. i've tried to pawn her off on other teachers who are maybe better equipped to deal with it, but i think our schedules conflict. i just don't know. I want this nightmare to stop. It sure as [censored] ain't worth the pay. I want to talk to the parents but really never have an opportunity, as I'd rather not say all this (although i'd be much more tactful of course) around the young one herself. I'm flabbergasted at how clueless her parents are.
I think you need to find a way to not teach this student anymore--for the student's sake. Your attitude toward her seems pretty toxic, to be honest.
Yeah, I've tried for months. Every other student I have is just fine. And I fully admit I may not have the tools to teach her, like she may benefit from completely different methods I'm not familiar with, and I have even said as much to the store owner, but nothing has changed.


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Originally Posted by CodySean
Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by CodySean
...i have to cut my losses and basically say to myself "okay, you still play it like [censored], guess we'll go back and look at an easy piece again"

she just seems utterly clueless and frankly not all that bright. i teach at a little private instruction school and have brought this to the attention of the owners. i've tried to pawn her off on other teachers who are maybe better equipped to deal with it, but i think our schedules conflict. i just don't know. I want this nightmare to stop. It sure as [censored] ain't worth the pay. I want to talk to the parents but really never have an opportunity, as I'd rather not say all this (although i'd be much more tactful of course) around the young one herself. I'm flabbergasted at how clueless her parents are.
I think you need to find a way to not teach this student anymore--for the student's sake. Your attitude toward her seems pretty toxic, to be honest.
Yeah, I've tried for months. Every other student I have is just fine. And I fully admit I may not have the tools to teach her, like she may benefit from completely different methods I'm not familiar with, and I have even said as much to the store owner, but nothing has changed.

Schedule a meeting with the parents outside of their daughter’s lesson. I would recommend that this
Be in person. Maybe the parents can advise how their daughter best learns.


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Have to admit some kids are not ready for piano at a young age. Mom got me a teacher at age 5. After a few lessons she knew I wasn’t ready for piano. Within a month the lessons stopped & the upright out of the house. At least mom was practical. She’s not going to pay for something if there is no result.

Restarted a few decades later as an adult learner. Paid for my own instrument & lessons. Have been practicing for an hour a day since. As a child, the parents decide for the music lessons & pay for the teacher. Some but not all are very involved with the child’s education. Coming from a non-musical family, my parents aren’t keen on the kids getting into music. When I’m older, I decide to get into music when I’m ready.

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