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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Talking about jumps and stride I think you need to see this guy. I verify that it's his real playing speed, the playback speed was not changed in any way. The stride begins at 0:53.

That sounds quite horrible. It's hard to tell how technically difficult the passage is because it's not clear if he's playing single notes or octaves in the bass and how many notes are in the chords in the mid range. But I don't that matters because it's such ugly sounding playing. Tatum's LH stride playing was light years beyond what's shown in that video both technically and musically.


So how about this guy, Bram Wijnands, real present day stride expert.



It brings a big smile on my face, and wants me to quit piano. I think the key is to be relaxed; just let the fingers fly and keep smiling :-) Yeah, I know, I am of no help here, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Kepijapa
So how about this guy, Bram Wijnands, real present day stride expert.



It brings a big smile on my face, and wants me to quit piano. I think the key is to be relaxed; just let the fingers fly and keep smiling :-) Yeah, I know, I am of no help here, sorry.
He is really good but it's "only" 140 bpm with short jumps. Not enough. laugh

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Originally Posted by JohnnyIssieBangie
Originally Posted by GreenCheck
I am an early beginner (about 1.5 months of self study)

Perhaps my most fundamental question is this: should I be thinking of jumps in terms of how far I need to move my hands, or in terms of the absolute location of the key I will strike? That is, say I'm moving from C4 to C3 - should I be be trying to mentally encode "this is what it feels like to move my hand down an octave" (this is how I've been thinking about it), or should I be thinking "this is where the C3 key is on the keyboard"?

1.5 months of study... there is nothing wrong with being aware of the things you're thinking of - but if that is your most fundamental question, then you're overthinking it, and you're misguided.

At this point you should be following a syllabus of some sort which will put your focus where it should be, which is playing actual beginner pieces (which do not involve jumps), rhythms, scales and maybe for you some Czerny. Avoid Hanon for now; all you'll get there are bad habits.
And if you're very proactive lots and lots of theory.

If you're doing jumps, then I'll venture a guess that you're already turning into a Beethoven / Chopin drone. Playing nonsense like Fur Elize, the Moonlight Sontate and Etude's. It's a disease. Spend enough time on forums like this and you'll find lots of talk in the beginner forum by muppets flexing their muscles. It doesn't matter why, there are idiots everywhere.
In fact, the minute you read anything to do with Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Rachmaninoff, Chopin etc.... just ignore the post, log off and go back to what you should be doing. The stuff I've already mentioned.
It's is extremely frustrating, yes I know.
It will get much much more frustrating and unless you start slow you will get nowhere, and give up.
Whether you say you can, or say you can't either way you're right. Ford.

Great commentary, thanks for your input.

I've been playing for well over 5 decades, and it's been my observation these days that much of the younger generation thinks all that's required to learn to play the piano is an XBOX console and a video game that you just play and play until you conquer a level and go on to the next, or if they're older all they have to do is simply watch 10,000 YouBoob videos on the piano - and they'll be Wang Wang in 6 months. Reality check: the piano is an immensely complicated musical instrument that requires the student to possess excellent hand/eye coordination, along with good stamina, and there must be dedication through much practice before any notable degree of skill can be learned...if at all.

And the OP is talking jumps at the 1.5 month mark, of "self study"? Honestly. This business of "jumping ahead" of one's skills can only lead to one thing...disappointment. If a person is not willing to take the required steps/prerequisites to learn to play the piano correctly, they might as well stop now because they're only kidding themselves wasting their time and money.


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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
I know what pracice technique ranjit is talking about as this is how my teacher showed me to practice jumps - you play, jump, and prepare the next chord without playing it, then play and prepare the next one, etc. Unfortunately, it has certain limitations at a faster tempo.
It is something that is done when you start learning the jumps. But otherwise the jump is done in one single mouvement and you form the shape of the hand while doing the mouvement, the fast or slow tempo has no role. If you can do it in fast tempos, you can also do it in slow ones obviously, even better. The voicing of the chord is something you work out before hand.
The point is to prepare mentally for the next chord and move there without hesitation. In a piece with lots of chords in sequence this serves to solidify the piece.
There's a big difference between preparing mentally and moving to the chord, pausing there, and then playing it which seems more like some kind of physical preparation. I think the second approach is almost always awkward and rarely done by advanced pianists even if the tempo is slow. For fast tempos I think it's clearly not even possible. It might be a reasonable practice technique for beginners.
I think you are misunderstanding what I meant. The mental preparation that I'm talking about is preparing for the next chord that will be played not the one you just jumped to. So, let's say you have a sequence of chords A, B, C, etc. and you have to jump between them. You play A then jump quickly to B but don't play it yet, but in your mind you have C as the next chord to be played, and then you play B and quickly jump to C, etc. I mentioned it in the context of jumping but it's just as good for other kinds of quick position shifts.

And I disagree that only for beginners. I saw both Josh Wright and Graham Fitch demonstrate this technique and it wasn't in beginner pieces. IIRC one of them was Mendelssohn's Rondo Capriccioso.

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Originally Posted by Kepijapa
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Talking about jumps and stride I think you need to see this guy. I verify that it's his real playing speed, the playback speed was not changed in any way. The stride begins at 0:53.

That sounds quite horrible. It's hard to tell how technically difficult the passage is because it's not clear if he's playing single notes or octaves in the bass and how many notes are in the chords in the mid range. But I don't that matters because it's such ugly sounding playing. Tatum's LH stride playing was light years beyond what's shown in that video both technically and musically.


So how about this guy, Bram Wijnands, real present day stride expert.

The elements that make for difficult stride are:
high speed
octaves/tenths/filled in tenths followed by big chords on the jump
long jumps.

It seems like this pianist isn't doing much or any of that. He's kind of a beginner compared to pianists like Tatum, Waller,James P. Johnson, Wellstood, etc. Here's an example of one of Wellstood's "easy"(compared to other examples of his playing) performances which is still far more difficult than the one you posted:

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Originally Posted by DrewBone
Great commentary, thanks for your input.

I've been playing for well over 5 decades, and it's been my observation these days that much of the younger generation thinks all that's required to learn to play the piano is an XBOX console and a video game that you just play and play until you conquer a level and go on to the next, or if they're older all they have to do is simply watch 10,000 YouBoob videos on the piano - and they'll be Wang Wang in 6 months. Reality check: the piano is an immensely complicated musical instrument that requires the student to possess excellent hand/eye coordination, along with good stamina, and there must be dedication through much practice before any notable degree of skill can be learned...if at all.

And the OP is talking jumps at the 1.5 month mark, of "self study"? Honestly. This business of "jumping ahead" of one's skills can only lead to one thing...disappointment. If a person is not willing to take the required steps/prerequisites to learn to play the piano correctly, they might as well stop now because they're only kidding themselves wasting their time and money.

As I mentioned earlier, here is the piece I am talking about:

[img]https://imgur.com/a/RLUhICA[/img]

The other piece that is giving me trouble in this regard is on page 51 of Book 1 of Alfred's All-in-One Adult Piano Course.

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Originally Posted by GreenCheck
[img]https://imgur.com/a/RLUhICA[/img]

The other piece that is giving me trouble in this regard is on page 51 of Book 1 of Alfred's All-in-One Adult Piano Course.
and just in case you missed my post the piece in question doesn't require any jumps. Please post the Alfred piece if you'd like further advice.


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Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Originally Posted by GreenCheck
[img]https://imgur.com/a/RLUhICA[/img]

The other piece that is giving me trouble in this regard is on page 51 of Book 1 of Alfred's All-in-One Adult Piano Course.
and just in case you missed my post the piece in question doesn't require any jumps. Please post the Alfred piece if you'd like further advice.

Thank you chopin. I did see that post and it was helpful. I have been trying out your suggestion. Regarding the Alfred piece, it requires playing 8 measures, and then repeating them with the left hand 1 octave lower. Based on feedback I've received in this thread, I think I am going to simply take a quick glance down at the keys at that point, forgetting the notion that looking down at the keys is always and everywhere a cardinal sin.

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If you've memorized something you look at the keys more or less 100% of the time. What else is there to look at? When I'm sight reading I'm 100% on the sheet, practicing a piece 100% on the hands/keys.


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Originally Posted by DrewBone
Originally Posted by JohnnyIssieBangie
Originally Posted by GreenCheck
I am an early beginner (about 1.5 months of self study)

Perhaps my most fundamental question is this: should I be thinking of jumps in terms of how far I need to move my hands, or in terms of the absolute location of the key I will strike? That is, say I'm moving from C4 to C3 - should I be be trying to mentally encode "this is what it feels like to move my hand down an octave" (this is how I've been thinking about it), or should I be thinking "this is where the C3 key is on the keyboard"?

1.5 months of study... there is nothing wrong with being aware of the things you're thinking of - but if that is your most fundamental question, then you're overthinking it, and you're misguided.

At this point you should be following a syllabus of some sort which will put your focus where it should be, which is playing actual beginner pieces (which do not involve jumps), rhythms, scales and maybe for you some Czerny. Avoid Hanon for now; all you'll get there are bad habits.
And if you're very proactive lots and lots of theory.

If you're doing jumps, then I'll venture a guess that you're already turning into a Beethoven / Chopin drone. Playing nonsense like Fur Elize, the Moonlight Sontate and Etude's. It's a disease. Spend enough time on forums like this and you'll find lots of talk in the beginner forum by muppets flexing their muscles. It doesn't matter why, there are idiots everywhere.
In fact, the minute you read anything to do with Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Rachmaninoff, Chopin etc.... just ignore the post, log off and go back to what you should be doing. The stuff I've already mentioned.
It's is extremely frustrating, yes I know.
It will get much much more frustrating and unless you start slow you will get nowhere, and give up.
Whether you say you can, or say you can't either way you're right. Ford.

Great commentary, thanks for your input.

I've been playing for well over 5 decades, and it's been my observation these days that much of the younger generation thinks all that's required to learn to play the piano is an XBOX console and a video game that you just play and play until you conquer a level and go on to the next, or if they're older all they have to do is simply watch 10,000 YouBoob videos on the piano - and they'll be Wang Wang in 6 months. Reality check: the piano is an immensely complicated musical instrument that requires the student to possess excellent hand/eye coordination, along with good stamina, and there must be dedication through much practice before any notable degree of skill can be learned...if at all.

And the OP is talking jumps at the 1.5 month mark, of "self study"? Honestly. This business of "jumping ahead" of one's skills can only lead to one thing...disappointment. If a person is not willing to take the required steps/prerequisites to learn to play the piano correctly, they might as well stop now because they're only kidding themselves wasting their time and money.
You're misunderstanding the OP. They were actually talking about small shifts in hand position in an early beginner piece and are not trying something difficult. The rest of the discussion was started by the other members.

Plus, I really dislike all of this hate against students who are ambitious at the piano. I was trying to play without looking at the keys after 1 month. I was also able to coordinate left hand jumps (lh octave + chord two octaves above) along with a melody in one hand position after about 1-2 months. I still think jumps are one of my strengths, I can play for example the jumps in Jarrod Radnich's Pirates of the Caribbean pretty confidently now. If I had taken seriously the amazing advice of players such as yourself, I would have never challenged myself and would probably still be an intermediate player. smh

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Kepijapa
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Talking about jumps and stride I think you need to see this guy. I verify that it's his real playing speed, the playback speed was not changed in any way. The stride begins at 0:53.

That sounds quite horrible. It's hard to tell how technically difficult the passage is because it's not clear if he's playing single notes or octaves in the bass and how many notes are in the chords in the mid range. But I don't that matters because it's such ugly sounding playing. Tatum's LH stride playing was light years beyond what's shown in that video both technically and musically.


So how about this guy, Bram Wijnands, real present day stride expert.

The elements that make for difficult stride are:
high speed
octaves/tenths/filled in tenths followed by big chords on the jump
long jumps.

It seems like this pianist isn't doing much or any of that. He's kind of a beginner compared to pianists like Tatum, Waller,James P. Johnson, Wellstood, etc. Here's an example of one of Wellstood's "easy"(compared to other examples of his playing) performances which is still far more difficult than the one you posted:


Haha, not going to give up that easy. Here you can see him from behind, see his hands. I know, easy stuff, sure. Don't know if the jumps are big enough for you, but the speed is certainly there.


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Originally Posted by GreenCheck
... Based on feedback I've received in this thread, I think I am going to simply take a quick glance down at the keys at that point, forgetting the notion that looking down at the keys is always and everywhere a cardinal sin.

If you play 100% from memory, you can look anywhere you please--at your hands, at the ceiling, at the cat, etc. If you have a score in front of you, it's fine to glance down occasionally. Being able to glance down and find your way back to the score is a valuable skill to learn and will serve you well throughout your piano life. It is also possible, under some circumstances; to use your peripheral vision to help with a jump or other difficulty. For example, witlh many uprights and digitals, the music desk is lower (closer to the keyboard) and you can use your peripheral vision.

For relatively small intervals, becoming at ease with the geography (proprioception) of the keyboard is a must--some people may have it immediately; for others it comes with time and practice.


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Originally Posted by Kepijapa
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Kepijapa
That sounds quite horrible. It's hard to tell how technically difficult the passage is because it's not clear if he's playing single notes or octaves in the bass and how many notes are in the chords in the mid range. But I don't that matters because it's such ugly sounding playing. Tatum's LH stride playing was light years beyond what's shown in that video both technically and musically.


So how about this guy, Bram Wijnands, real present day stride expert.

The elements that make for difficult stride are:
high speed
octaves/tenths/filled in tenths followed by big chords on the jump
long jumps.

It seems like this pianist isn't doing much or any of that. He's kind of a beginner compared to pianists like Tatum, Waller,James P. Johnson, Wellstood, etc. Here's an example of one of Wellstood's "easy"(compared to other examples of his playing) performances which is still far more difficult than the one you posted:


Haha, not going to give up that easy. Here you can see him from behind, see his hands. I know, easy stuff, sure. Don't know if the jumps are big enough for you, but the speed is certainly there.

[/quote]The general distance of the jumps is FAR less than in the Wellstood video which makes them MUCH easier even at a fast speed.

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When I think of fast left hand jumps, I think Cziffra. He had God's own left hand lol.

(At 1:29)


And I have never seen anyone else perform his Tritsch Tratsch Polka jumps at tempo with that kind of articulation.

(At 2:56)

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