2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
91 members (Abdol, anamnesis, 8ude, Adem, Alex C, 80k, Andre R., AJB, 21 invisible), 628 guests, and 320 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,323
M
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,323
I think most pianists quickly look for where to place hands for jumps. I can't play jumps accurately with eyes shut. Blind pianists struggle with jumps. Therefore there needs to be some expectation you can't get a skill that's impossible. certainly there are etudes designed to build this skill. Check out this monster. Horrendous difficult this one.


(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,057
R
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,057
Moo -- you're sort of correct, but it depends on the nature of the jump. You see masters of stride piano seldom look at their left hand when playing standard patterns, for example such as octave + chord or bass note+chord.

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,323
M
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,323
Could you not just isolate the jump you are struggling with. Play the note, look down where you need to move to, and then jump. I'm not sure you should practice this not looking at the notes. It's simple but what I do and seems to work. I tend to play them quicker or play the passage in difficulty in rhythms can help. I managed quite a difficult passage in July Tchaikovsky with this strategy. Perhaps similar for even a complex piece like above isolated practice for each difficult jump and then play jumps together. Then in rhythms. Playing piano can be boring, lol, but doesn't necessarily have to be complicated. Good luck!!

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 566
T
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 566
Tricky things jumps. If you are reading then it's either quickly glance away from the score. Judge the jump and hope for the best. Or if it's a slow jump feel for the key. All difficult skills.
If it's a regular piece then you can just practice that jump seperately without looking. Practice it as slowly as is necessary to gauruntee that you hit the note. If you start missing slow it down.

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,430
I
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,430
Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by ranjit
Second, I think one of the most effective way to practice jumps is shadow practice. Play the first note, then move to the new position very quickly but do not press those notes. In my experience, you get a feeling for the new position quite quickly. That said, it improves with time and keyboard familiarity.
Why not play the note also? I think practicing what will actually be done makes more sense that practicing something close to/related to what will be done. Also, moving reasonably quickly may make more sense than moving very quickly.
There are two things that go into a jump. One is the arc you go in while you move from one position to another and getting your hand shape correct corresponding to the target figuration. The second part is getting the articulation of the second group of notes. It's very useful to practice both separately. Moving very quickly makes you freer because you can't move quickly if you waste energy. You need to reach the target some time before you play it so that you have enough time to articulate it properly.
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. In a jump the landing on the keys and playing the keys must be done in one continual motion. Breaking that motion, that is stopping the hand on the keys and then playing them, is a technical flaw, one of the most widespread ones. It may work well in the medium tempo, but the faster you play the more that habit will hinder you.

That said, before practicing a jump I often touch the target keys, too, in order to remember where the targets keys are spatially. I guess that tactile feeling of the keys helps the brain to better remember their position. But when I practice a jump, I try not to slow my hand in any phase of it.

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,430
I
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,430
Talking about jumps and stride I think you need to see this guy. I verify that it's his real playing speed, the playback speed was not changed in any way. The stride begins at 0:53.


Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,057
R
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,057
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by ranjit
Second, I think one of the most effective way to practice jumps is shadow practice. Play the first note, then move to the new position very quickly but do not press those notes. In my experience, you get a feeling for the new position quite quickly. That said, it improves with time and keyboard familiarity.
Why not play the note also? I think practicing what will actually be done makes more sense that practicing something close to/related to what will be done. Also, moving reasonably quickly may make more sense than moving very quickly.
There are two things that go into a jump. One is the arc you go in while you move from one position to another and getting your hand shape correct corresponding to the target figuration. The second part is getting the articulation of the second group of notes. It's very useful to practice both separately. Moving very quickly makes you freer because you can't move quickly if you waste energy. You need to reach the target some time before you play it so that you have enough time to articulate it properly.
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. In a jump the landing on the keys and playing the keys must be done in one continual motion. Breaking that motion, that is stopping the hand on the keys and then playing them, is a technical flaw, one of the most widespread ones.
..
That said, before practicing a jump I often touch the target keys, too, in order to remember where the targets keys are spatially. I guess that tactile feeling of the keys helps the brain to better remember their position. But when I practice a jump, I try not to slow my hand in any phase of it.
Yes, it's a bit tricky to discuss technique over words. I was talking about what you say in your second paragraph. What I meant is that you shouldn't just flop your hand onto the new position, but think about the articulation as well in order for it to go smoothly. So for that you need to reach a little bit before you actually play in order to be in control. But it should be one movement in total. I have heard it called shadowing the new position, where you reach the new position but don't play it and it's very good to develop proprioception in my experience. That, and trying to visualize the distance in your head if you can was very useful as well for me at least.

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,057
R
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,057
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Talking about jumps and stride I think you need to see this guy. I verify that it's his real playing speed, the playback speed was not changed in any way. The stride begins at 0:53.

That's wild! I think that jumping at that speed is probably a gift. I have also seen places where Cziffra does it (and faster!). Even concert pianists such as Yuja Wang struggle with those kinds of insanely fast jumps.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,707
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,707
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Talking about jumps and stride I think you need to see this guy. I verify that it's his real playing speed, the playback speed was not changed in any way. The stride begins at 0:53.

That sounds quite horrible. It's hard to tell how technically difficult the passage is because it's not clear if he's playing single notes or octaves in the bass and how many notes are in the chords in the mid range. But I don't that matters because it's such ugly sounding playing. Tatum's LH stride playing was light years beyond what's shown in that video both technically and musically.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,707
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,707
Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Why not play the note also? I think practicing what will actually be done makes more sense that practicing something close to/related to what will be done. Also, moving reasonably quickly may make more sense than moving very quickly.
There are two things that go into a jump. One is the arc you go in while you move from one position to another and getting your hand shape correct corresponding to the target figuration. The second part is getting the articulation of the second group of notes. It's very useful to practice both separately. Moving very quickly makes you freer because you can't move quickly if you waste energy. You need to reach the target some time before you play it so that you have enough time to articulate it properly.
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. In a jump the landing on the keys and playing the keys must be done in one continual motion. Breaking that motion, that is stopping the hand on the keys and then playing them, is a technical flaw, one of the most widespread ones.
..
That said, before practicing a jump I often touch the target keys, too, in order to remember where the targets keys are spatially. I guess that tactile feeling of the keys helps the brain to better remember their position. But when I practice a jump, I try not to slow my hand in any phase of it.
Yes, it's a bit tricky to discuss technique over words. I was talking about what you say in your second paragraph. What I meant is that you shouldn't just flop your hand onto the new position, but think about the articulation as well in order for it to go smoothly. So for that you need to reach a little bit before you actually play in order to be in control. But it should be one movement in total. I have heard it called shadowing the new position, where you reach the new position but don't play it and it's very good to develop in my experience. That, and trying to visualize the distance in your head if you can was very useful as well for me at least.
When you say you have to think about the articulation, that makes no sense. There are just two notes or chords involved in a jump, IOW it's a two note phrase. So there's almost nothing to think about articulation wise. It goes without saying one shouldn't "flop" your hand onto the new position since "flop" implies a lack of control. You say "it should be one movement" but that's why it makes the most sense to practice it as one movement.

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,057
R
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,057
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
When you say you have to think about the articulation, that makes no sense. There are just two notes or chords involved in a jump, IOW it's a two note phrase. So there's almost nothing to think about articulation wise.
And how are you so sure about that?

Joined: May 2015
Posts: 10,960
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 10,960
Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
When you say you have to think about the articulation, that makes no sense. There are just two notes or chords involved in a jump, IOW it's a two note phrase. So there's almost nothing to think about articulation wise.
And how are you so sure about that?

Ranjit, if you’ve found this is a method that is generally taught, why don’t you post a link to the training? I’ve never heard of stopping to think about articulation, and seeing the context of the training would be helpful.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,967
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,967
Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
When you say you have to think about the articulation, that makes no sense. There are just two notes or chords involved in a jump, IOW it's a two note phrase. So there's almost nothing to think about articulation wise.
And how are you so sure about that?

Ranjit, if you’ve found this is a method that is generally taught, why don’t you post a link to the training? I’ve never heard of stopping to think about articulation, and seeing the context of the training would be helpful.
Maybe he means voicing not articulation.

I know what pracice technique ranjit is talking about as this is how my teacher showed me to practice jumps - you play, jump, and prepare the next chord without playing it, then play and prepare the next one, etc. Unfortunately, it has certain limitations at a faster tempo. I recently posted a question about this and I think for really fast jumps you need to practice falling directly on the keys and not stopping at the target.

Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 7
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 7
It comes in time, only by practicing. Just tale your time. It came for me with self-confidence.

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,057
R
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,057
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
When you say you have to think about the articulation, that makes no sense. There are just two notes or chords involved in a jump, IOW it's a two note phrase. So there's almost nothing to think about articulation wise.
And how are you so sure about that?

Ranjit, if you’ve found this is a method that is generally taught, why don’t you post a link to the training? I’ve never heard of stopping to think about articulation, and seeing the context of the training would be helpful.
Maybe he means voicing not articulation.

I know what pracice technique ranjit is talking about as this is how my teacher showed me to practice jumps - you play, jump, and prepare the next chord without playing it, then play and prepare the next one, etc.
Yes, I think this is essentially what I was talking about. I used it with the Brahms op 118 which I worked on briefly.

I'm not too sure about the terminology. What I'm referring to is whatever happens in the few milliseconds it takes to actually depress the keys. It involves using arm or body weight, an action at the fingertips which somehow adds clarity to the sound produced, and may involve finger strength (from forearm muscles) or rotation etc. Voicing is definitely related to this as well, but it goes deeper than that.

On whether this works for fast jumps, it probably works for most jumps. I know someone who used it to learn the finale of a Chopin concerto with the contrary motion double handed jumps, if you know what I mean.

It's kind of hard to find out what works at high speed. 'Articulating' the notes does take a few milliseconds of time, so if you have to go all guns blazing like in the video Iaroslav posted it may not be possible to do. However, most classical music including the harder standard repertoire are meant to be controlled and usually does not involve playing at that kind of speed. One thing I've realized recently is just how much control the pros have over the articulation of the individual notes even at very high tempos. It makes it much harder to play those pieces at tempo *well* than it is to just play them. On the other hand it's often not impossible but merely extremely difficult to learn to do.

For the Rach prelude snippet you posted in the other thread for example, I would think a lot about how high the hands go and the arc which they follow to land on the upper chords. There will probably be some degree of compromise involved because your hands will still be moving laterally due to inertia as you play the higher chords if you're jumping very fast. This will make it tricky to feel the "bottom of the keys" and give it a weighty, supported tone. So yes in this kind of case you'll probably just have to aim your hands correctly and land on the target notes. However, this is the exception rather than the rule imo. Also from what I've seen, professionals will often cleverly take just enough time to avoid that kind of situation, and when I've asked teachers about pieces like those, they've usually suggested tiny changes precisely to avoid that kind of uncontrolled very fast shift you mention.

Joined: May 2015
Posts: 10,960
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 10,960
Ranjit
You posted that stopping for articulation is a common strategy and you have seen discussions about it. Please post a link from a respected pianist. I don’t understand the reasoning or the need to stop and think about the tone or articulation or whatever it might be termed.

Here is your original post of the frequency of the teaching of this practice

http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthr...without-looking-at-keys.html#Post3174049

Last edited by dogperson; 11/30/21 05:59 AM.
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 336
W
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
W
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 336
I can’t do it either. If I’m learning a piece by reading the music then il aim to memorise at least the section around the jump/jumps in order to take my eyes off the music. It’s not always necessary, other times I can look at the keys and pick the score back up

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,707
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 32,707
Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
When you say you have to think about the articulation, that makes no sense. There are just two notes or chords involved in a jump, IOW it's a two note phrase. So there's almost nothing to think about articulation wise.
And how are you so sure about that?
I explained in what you quoted why my conclusion is obvious. As some others have suggested, it seems like you do not understand what the word articulation means.

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,430
I
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,430
Originally Posted by ranjit
So for that you need to reach a little bit before you actually play in order to be in control.
I don't really think so. You need to prepare fingers during the landing phase of a jump and learn to produce the desired sound right "attacking from the air".

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,430
I
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,430
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
It's hard to tell how technically difficult the passage is because it's not clear if he's playing single notes or octaves in the bass and how many notes are in the chords in the mid range.
There is a single bass note and then a chord. The main difficulty is that a bass note is in most cases two octaves lower than the chord.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Tatum's LH stride playing was light years beyond what's shown in that video both technically and musically.
Art Tatum you say!

Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Music theory - Key identification
by Animisha - 07/06/22 11:21 AM
Yamaha P-125 String Resonance
by Petzold - 07/06/22 09:50 AM
Piano saver system? does everyone use this?
by NJ_Piano_Mom - 07/06/22 09:00 AM
Future-proof-ness of a silent acoustic grand
by Falsch - 07/06/22 08:03 AM
Haessler
by PianistEsq - 07/06/22 12:05 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
FREE June Newsletter is Here!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
-------------------
Music Store Going Out of Business Sale!
---------------------
Mr. PianoWorld's Original Composition
---------------------
Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics213,828
Posts3,205,830
Members105,735
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5