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Hi everyone, thank you very much for your kind replies and the warm welcome.

Sorry for my late response. I suppose I suffered from a bit of imposter syndrome, after having read your replies full of compliments, especially as I have not been playing a lot lately (due to the abovementioned current lack of an instrument). I really do miss playing the piano.

@HZPiano Beautifully phrased, I hope I will love the Novus too once it is in my home and that the woes will be over.

@Gombessa It never really did occur to me that transposing while sight-reading was a special skill. It was more of a fun trick to me and a way to hear a piece in (what I perceived as) a more appropriate frequency. Nothing to be envious of, but again, thanks a lot for your kind words. I also would not do it for too long and would revert back to the original notes, as I assumed it could affect my muscle memory for the pieces I was studying and because I would hear the "correct" sound soon enough at my teacher's house.

@playplayplay Indeed, I believe that playing on an out of tune upright piano does not have to stand in one's way to learn playing the piano. Especially if you connect with the instrument and if there is the possibility of playing on a different instrument (for example at a teacher's place) from time to time, as a reminder of what could be possible in the future.

@frosas Hearing that buying the NV10 was the best decision in your life makes me even more anxious to receive mine.

I will definitely keep you posted when I receive it.


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Hi Anna. I hope for you that your new NV10s arrives soon. The shipping situation is a mess at the moment. At least in the US. I’m sure you will love it. We look forward to seeing and hearing you play it in the near future. 😊

Last edited by ˆTomLCˆ; 10/28/21 08:25 AM.

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Hello everyone,

I hope you all are doing well...

I have a question related to Line in/Line out.

I remember I read in the manual that we cannot connect the Line out to the Line in of the Kawai NV10. And that this would create a certain loop that would damage the unit.

So the question is: What if I connect the Line out of the NV10 to a digital mixer (Midas M32 or MR18), and I will connect so many other instruments to the same mixer, and then connect the main out of the mixer to the Line in of the NV10 to use it's speakers if I don't have any other speakers to use...

Would this still cause a damage?

Please let me know...

Thanks,


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Originally Posted by Seif Maher
Would this still cause a damage?

Yes. The problem is the feedback loop.

Do you know the phenomenon when you put a microphone too close to a speaker, where it goes "WHEEEEEE" ? That's the same thing. The microphone picks up any sound, and puts it out through the speaker. If the microphone picks up THAT sound, it will put it out through the speaker again, and the mic picks up THAT sound, which it will put through the speaker again.... so it gets louder and louder until it will finally blow the speaker (or at least damage your hearing).

This same thing happens when you connect the line out to the line in, even if you put a mixer in between. Everything that comes into the piano through line in, is probably also sent out through the line-out, and through the piano's speakers; so if you "catch" that line-out and put it right back into the line-in, (where it will be amplified), you're creating a louder sound... which will be put out through the line-out, where you catch it again, and put it back into the line-in....

Piano probably goes "boom" or something. Don't do it.

Last edited by Falsch; 11/25/21 11:39 AM.

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Originally Posted by Falsch
Originally Posted by Seif Maher
Would this still cause a damage?

Yes. The problem is the feedback loop.


I'm interested in knowing the answer to this as well, and I suspect Falsch is correct. Your DP sound exits the line-out, goes into the mixer, enters the line-in, which adds to the sound already going through the line-out, and that sum again exits the line-out, into the mixer with more volume, which gets fed back into line-in, which adds the already additive signal. Even if you attenuate the volume in your mixer, I think it's gonna add back up again.


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The best solution in this case is to use the mixer as an interface with a DAW, and use a VST piano sound instead of the NV10's internal piano engine... It's a less convenient setup, but I don't want to end up damaging the amp circuit or the speakers...


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Falsch
Originally Posted by Seif Maher
Would this still cause a damage?

Yes. The problem is the feedback loop.


I'm interested in knowing the answer to this as well, and I suspect Falsch is correct. Your DP sound exits the line-out, goes into the mixer, enters the line-in, which adds to the sound already going through the line-out, and that sum again exits the line-out, into the mixer with more volume, which gets fed back into line-in, which adds the already additive signal. Even if you attenuate the volume in your mixer, I think it's gonna add back up again.

The question is WHY do you want to do that? If you want to mix other instruments to the original NV10 sound, just feed the additional instruments to the line-in and be done with it. The NV10 will mix those with its internal sound and you'll hear everything. No reason to use the line out.

Or I must be missing something about what you are trying to accomplish

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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I'm interested in knowing the answer to this as well, and I suspect Falsch is correct.

I'm correct _IF_ the NV-10 outputs the incoming line-in signal out of the line-out. This can easily be tested by connecting a phone to the line-in, have something play there, and connecting a pair of computer speakers to the line-out. You can then hear if the NV-10 outputs the incoming signal through the line-out in addition to running it through its own speakers. (I never tested this.)

If the incoming signal comes out of the line-out, you may _NEVER_ connect that line-out to the line-in, not even through a mixer or a different instrument.

Last edited by Falsch; 11/25/21 02:39 PM.

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Originally Posted by Del Vento
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Falsch
Originally Posted by Seif Maher
Would this still cause a damage?

Yes. The problem is the feedback loop.


I'm interested in knowing the answer to this as well, and I suspect Falsch is correct. Your DP sound exits the line-out, goes into the mixer, enters the line-in, which adds to the sound already going through the line-out, and that sum again exits the line-out, into the mixer with more volume, which gets fed back into line-in, which adds the already additive signal. Even if you attenuate the volume in your mixer, I think it's gonna add back up again.

The question is WHY do you want to do that? If you want to mix other instruments to the original NV10 sound, just feed the additional instruments to the line-in and be done with it. The NV10 will mix those with its internal sound and you'll hear everything. No reason to use the line out.

Or I must be missing something about what you are trying to accomplish

For starters, it's needed for multi track recording of the jamming session. In addition, the idea is that connecting everything through the mixer allows for mixing the piano sound along with other instruments depending on the track being played, adding effects, and more importantly creating different mixes to each player. For example, the guitar player doesn't want to hear a lot of piano, and wants to focus more on his guitar. This can be done by creating an in ear mix that cannot be done unless the piano is fed into one of the mixers inputs.


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Originally Posted by Seif Maher
Originally Posted by Del Vento
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I'm interested in knowing the answer to this as well, and I suspect Falsch is correct. Your DP sound exits the line-out, goes into the mixer, enters the line-in, which adds to the sound already going through the line-out, and that sum again exits the line-out, into the mixer with more volume, which gets fed back into line-in, which adds the already additive signal. Even if you attenuate the volume in your mixer, I think it's gonna add back up again.

The question is WHY do you want to do that? If you want to mix other instruments to the original NV10 sound, just feed the additional instruments to the line-in and be done with it. The NV10 will mix those with its internal sound and you'll hear everything. No reason to use the line out.

Or I must be missing something about what you are trying to accomplish

For starters, it's needed for multi track recording of the jamming session. In addition, the idea is that connecting everything through the mixer allows for mixing the piano sound along with other instruments depending on the track being played, adding effects, and more importantly creating different mixes to each player. For example, the guitar player doesn't want to hear a lot of piano, and wants to focus more on his guitar. This can be done by creating an in ear mix that cannot be done unless the piano is fed into one of the mixers inputs.

Fair enough. Then why do you need to put the output of the mixer on the line-in of the piano is everybody is having a separate in-ear mix? If the answer is: because the pianist won't have the in-ear mix and instead wants to ear the piano and everything else from the piano speakers, then simply create a separate mix to feed the line-in of the piano which does not include the piano itself. That part is easy. Still you have to check if the piano "spits out" on the line-out everything that it receives from the line-in too. If it does, that's a problem, but it may not. Checking the manual and a quick test with a phone and external speakers will verify if that's the case. If it does, you need to use external monitors or headphones (rather than the line-in from piano itself) for the pianist to hear the other instruments. Or you need a much more sophisticated mixer which needs to do some subtractive analysis of its inputs/outputs, which is theoretically possible, but I am not sure if it's a product (since I am a theoretician, not a sound engineers)

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It may be a daft question Gombessa, but why did you feel the need to change the fallboard gap ?

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Alright, my daughter and I have spent a few months playing the NV10 now in our small living room. I figure now’s probably time to share my opinion on various topics, starting with whether to play with a sampled VST or with the inboard sounds.

Internal”Pianist Mode” SK-EX sound: at least in my poor room acoustics, it sounds much better on headphones vs the underwhelming speakers. While the sound doesn’t initially sound realistic, the instrument sound is easy to get accustomed to, and never irritating while practicing. The virtual technician settings combined with the “rich” profile could be used to mellow the sound out significantly to be closer to my “woody” taste in sound.

Garritan CFX: the sound is clearly more realistic. I prefer the player mics, although I’m still trying to find the ideal “dynamic range setting”, currently at “68%” for me. The downside is the latency and the complexity of having a computer plugged in. I’ll share in another post about latency but my zoom H6 multi track recorder measured a delay of 10-13 ms versus internal sounds.

Now what do I prefer? the Garritan appears to better represent large velocity sounds, with “harsh”-er string tones, as if the strings are at their breaking point. The Internal SK-EX sounds simply do not. They just get louder in amplitude without reflecting the change in tone.

This makes high velocity playing just sound louder, when in fact on an acoustic piano, the tone of the sound changes. Maybe I am old school, but in my opinion, it benefits a piano student like my daughter to learn sensitivity to the tone of sound, and get that vital feedback of a more brash sound when playing too loudly.

Perhaps this behavior of high velocity playing is so the instrument never sounds harsh, or perhaps I’ve changed so many technician settings that I’ve sapped away any of the tonal feedback when playing loudly.

In addition it is my hypothesis that since the internal sound only gets louder (and not harsher) that the Nv10 has the tendency to feel like a heavier action when the volume is turned down too low. If the internal sounds accurately provided the feedback of more strained strings, perhaps the player would have noticed instinctively that the volume was turned down too low.

What are your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by cbreemer
It may be a daft question Gombessa, but why did you feel the need to change the fallboard gap ?

"Feel the need" is a good way to put it. That's really the only answer. I felt the need to do it. I didn't need to do it at all, and it didn't need to be done. Gonna call it idle hands syndrome, sprinkled with pandemic-boredom? smile It's just been one of those minor details that I couldn't unsee, and living with it for 3+ years, I eventually worked up the courage/moxie to do something about it.


Originally Posted by dng
the Garritan appears to better represent large velocity sounds, with “harsh”-er string tones, as if the strings are at their breaking point. The Internal SK-EX sounds simply do not. They just get louder in amplitude without reflecting the change in tone.

I agree with this. The Garritan has that metallic "twang" character in the higher velocities that a lot of internal DP sound engines try to damp out, but I find it more realistic too. Roland exhibits this behavior more than Yamaha/Kawai as well, but IMO a bit TOO much? The Garritan is just right, especially if you tweak the dynamic range to your liking.

FWIW, I was trending toward higher dynamic range in Garritan to get more breathing room between quiet and loud, but after being able to sit down at a larger grand after ~2 years of lockdown, I re-realized how loud grands are, and 50-60% actually sounds the most accurate.


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Here's my latest recording on the Novus NV10:



I've made it a habit of updating this thread on my Novus journey. There's a good summary here of my progress up until now.

I've been trending away from the SK-EX engine and defaulting to Pianoteq on bootup.

There's a recap here of how I'm using Pianoteq on a Raspberry Pi 400 with the Novus for this new recording. I thought I might use some of the string voices on the Novus this time around just as a showcase, but never got around to it.

On the other hand, I can now control Pianoteq directly from the Novus using a scheme inspired by the N1X:

[Linked Image]

I simply choose Control on the the panel and then press a key on the piano to control Pianoteq via MIDI mapping. Neat! Good for simple stuff, but for anything more complex, I just use my iPad.

The SK-EX engine is nice to have around but I no longer use it except for reference. I'm not motivated to record it or deal with clunky WAV files on a USB stick. Pianoteq is just more civilized for production use.

Fortunately, Saurav made a direct recording of this same piece here on the Novus:



I really like his delicate interpretation. He's obviously really feeling this... I love it when he throws in those extra bass notes after the 0:55 second mark. Not a direct comparison, but maybe you get an idea of the differences between the SK-EX engine and Pianoteq NY Steinway D.

So how are things in Novus land? Where is the N3X competitor?

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What do you wanna hear Navindra? My humble opinion. The sound of the second clip wins here. Far more warmth. In the first clip, your clip I do hear too much (elektronic) ‘highth‘ in the sound. Better suited to jazz music I think.
Edit: BTW thank you for the music!

Last edited by deafital; 12/30/21 06:24 AM. Reason: Thank you for the music

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Originally Posted by deafital
What do you wanna hear Navindra? My humble opinion. The sound of the second clip wins here. Far more warmth. In the first clip, your clip I do hear too much (elektronic) ‘highth‘ in the sound. Better suited to jazz music I think.

That is definitely not what I want to hear, but honesty is always best. smile

Seems it's always the direct comparison that gets me in trouble.

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Originally Posted by navindra
Seems it's always the direct comparison that gets me in trouble.

Popular hobbies + global internet presence = always someone who will casually outperform you with one hand tied behind their back smile

Your playing is so tremendously improved from just a couple of years ago navindra, bravo! The Ffrench piece is a beautiful choice as well, I'd certainly like to learn it one day.


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Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by deafital
What do you wanna hear Navindra? My humble opinion. The sound of the second clip wins here. Far more warmth. In the first clip, your clip I do hear too much (elektronic) ‘highth‘ in the sound. Better suited to jazz music I think.

That is definitely not what I want to hear, but honesty is always best. smile

Seems it's always the direct comparison that gets me in trouble.
I'm in no way biased, still subjective.

To me it was also surprising, after my careful comparison of the nu1x and the nv5s which the sound of the nu1x did win, in a very very short comparison between the n1x and the nv10 I did like the sound of the nv10 more. So maybe my ears are shaped for the nv10 ;-)

Last edited by deafital; 12/30/21 04:24 PM. Reason: surprising instead of strange

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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Popular hobbies + global internet presence = always someone who will casually outperform you with one hand tied behind their back smile

Your playing is so tremendously improved from just a couple of years ago navindra, bravo! The Ffrench piece is a beautiful choice as well, I'd certainly like to learn it one day.

Wise words indeed... and thank you!

Originally Posted by deafital
To me it was also surprising, after my careful comparison of the nu1x and the nv5s which the sound of the nu1x did win, in a very very short comparison between the n1x and the nv10 I did like the sound of the nv10 more. So maybe my ears are shaped for the nv10 ;-)

There's no doubt the NV10 sounds good. It balances a good mix of sampling with modeling.

I'm just drawing my inspiration from elsewhere these days, but I still route everything through the NV10 speakers (with player mics and no added reverb) which probably helps a lot for an at-the-piano feel.

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Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by deafital
What do you wanna hear Navindra? My humble opinion. The sound of the second clip wins here. Far more warmth. In the first clip, your clip I do hear too much (elektronic) ‘highth‘ in the sound. Better suited to jazz music I think.

That is definitely not what I want to hear, but honesty is always best. smile

Seems it's always the direct comparison that gets me in trouble.

Comparing only the sound and not the artistry here, ok?

Frankly I like your version best. As I wrote you elsewhere, I don't love the PTQ sound, but I don't hate it either. Same for the NV10 sound, but I think PTQ is best. None is as good as I would want it from an acoustic grand piano, sadly.

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