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#3172902 11/23/21 11:02 PM
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mandan Offline OP
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I am playing the second variation movement of Beethoven op. 14 no. 2 piano sonata. I would like to ask you what to do, if I go in crescendo and forte and after that I have to play immediately piano, my hand can't relax, there is a lot of tension and although the dynamic is piano but the loose feeling isn't there. My teacher asked me to play just the piano parts and without playing just count the forte sections or stop a little bit before the forte section to give me time to relax my hand. But I should pay attention that if I give too much time it won't be classical, it will be romantic music like Chopin.

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Do you mean the second movement of the opus 14 no 2 or the second variation of the second movement of the opus14 no 2? It may be clearer if you stated the bar number.

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mandan Offline OP
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In main theme after the two crescendos and sforzatos in measure 6-7 in measure 8-9. Maybe I struck in measure 9 the quint c and g in the right hand as well, because I play it legato with the upbeat.

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mandan Offline OP
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The same problem as with the quint comes in the 10th measure with the octave, I hit it too much. I should stop a little bit after the trill.

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Ok. I don't really understand the problem but it seems your teacher has given you a solution by taking a break between the SF and P.

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I have no idea. It's quite a strange movement. Maybe someone else can help you

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Thank you very much for your response. Yes the solution of my teacher is good. Maybe I am tree cutting in the piece and this quints and octaves I should really take care just play it piano and not give accents on the first note of this measures. Or this is not a technical but rather thinking problem to keep the whole line. The staccatos are not points but lines as well like painting from spots.

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Form measure 20 the 8th notes in the right hand due to legato technical problem in the left after some measure comes wrongly on beat. It is really difficult to play legato the left and just pay attention on it. From measure 40 the portato is also problematic. The last variation with sixteenth is the easiest although the cresc rinforzandos two times and piano is difficult for me.

The favourite recording of my teacher is Stephen Kovacevich. And I should play it with 130 for a quarter like asked at Czerny edition. Altough the tempo marking of Beethoven is andante.

Last edited by mandan; 11/24/21 12:43 AM.
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I am not sure I understand your issue. You should see with your teacher how to play without putting tension in your hands. The fact that you play louder shouldnt create tension to the point of reducing your ability to play piano. In addition it is an andante, the Sf indication is a relative forte, so it is not like you are expected to create a really loud chord, it should remain within the limits of the piece character.

If you have tension, it probably means you do not have the proper technique.

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mandan Offline OP
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I don't think this piece would be difficult for me, but this is my first Beethoven sonatas.

I played until now just three classical sonatas:
Mozart no. 10 K. 330 in 2010
Haydn no. 15 Hob:16-13 in 2016
Beethoven no. 10 op. 14 no. 2 in 2021

I played this year a really fast Bach three part invention no. 10 as well.


Sforzandos could be also relative in piano as in measure 17,18,37,38,44,46,47,48,56,81,82.
But it comes after crescendo, so a higher dinamic in measure 6,7,32,52
or after crescendo as rinforcando in 70,71.
At rinforzandos my teacher recommended to really go mad and after the two cresc, rinforzandos, very quick I should go subito piano, if I don't do it it is like to tell a joke very badly.

It is difficult for my hand, because it becames like a stone, I couldn't describe more, it is spasm or cramp, I am not english, so excuse me I don't know the word for it. My piano teacher recommended me last lesson, that there are just 28 measures in the 90 measures piece, where I don't have to play piano, so I should stop after piano sections and just count and continue at the piano section again, the loose light piano feeling in my hands will be remembered at this sections, but when I play it after forte, the stressed feelings in my hands will be remembered.

Somewhere I read that Beethoven thought this movement of the piece to Czerny and Beethoven played it so fast, that he had pain in his hands. I should somewhere find the quotation, maybe it is in his Conversations books. In the fourth band of Czerny pianoforte school I found that this piece isn't andante, but rather allegretto, because the tempomarking is alla breve and the last variation is really lively.

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I think sidokar is corrected. I however am a little similar but i think perhaps is related to lack of experience with classical era music and perhaps going in at high difficulty is a mistake.

I am new to classical period. My teacher suggested kuhlau sonata and I learnt opus 88 no 2. I'm finishing off opus 88 no 3. I played Mozart D rondo on a recommendation. I did ask about Beethoven sonata here. The problem was that they are all like almost diploma level.

In the end I decided to play the only easy one opus 49 no 1. I am learning it. I don't have the problem you describe however with the right hand and maybe the second movement in this piece is similar with lots of sf'd etc.



I did buy the other suggestion (hadyn g capriccioso) and I just can't manage it with very fast right hand. So I wonder if this may be just a lack of experience rather of classical period.

I don't think your Bach invention is that good to be honest compared to other pieces which you play much better. It may have been better a little slower and voices a little more.

It's always good to ask your teacher but it doesn't sound like a problrm which you can't fix. I think more classical music will help and if you really can't manage just pick an easier one and return.

Good luck with the piece

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Quote
Sforzandos could be also relative in piano as in measure 17,18,37,38,44,46,47,48,56,81,82.
But it comes after crescendo, so a higher dinamic in measure 6,7,32,52

Well the Sf just marks the end of the crescendo. Then in measure 7 the crescendo does not necessarily mean you have to start louder than in measure 6. you can restart mp. Many pianists do exactly that. The dynamic indication are always relative and have as much expressive content as strictly dynamic. In my opinion in this passage you dont go much further than a forte on the Sf which means the rest is in between p and f.

[quote] or after crescendo as rinforcando in 70,71.
At rinforzandos my teacher recommended to really go mad and after the two cresc, rinforzandos, very quick I should go subito piano, if I don't do it it is like to tell a joke very badly.
[quote]

Sorry but I am not sure what you mean by going mad. If you mean ff or even fff, i think it makes absolutely no sense at all, given the way the piece is written. Again I would not go any further than a simple forte.

[quote] It is difficult for my hand, because it becames like a stone, I couldn't describe more, it is spasm or cramp, I am not english, so excuse me I don't know the word for it. My piano teacher recommended me last lesson, that there are just 28 measures in the 90 measures piece, where I don't have to play piano, so I should stop after piano sections and just count and continue at the piano section again, the loose light piano feeling in my hands will be remembered at this sections, but when I play it after forte, the stressed feelings in my hands will be remembered. [quote]

?? I think you have a technique issue. I think for one you are not playing the piece as most pianists do, if i understand well what you are saying but even if, I dont see why playing a couple of measures much louder would create a cramp unless you beat the piano to death !

[quote] Somewhere I read that Beethoven thought this movement of the piece to Czerny and Beethoven played it so fast, that he had pain in his hands. I should somewhere find the quotation, maybe it is in his Conversations books. In the fourth band of Czerny pianoforte school I found that this piece isn't andante, but rather allegretto, because the tempomarking is alla breve and the last variation is really lively.[quote]

you can play the last variation faster (which is what many pianists do), and still play in another tempo the rest. In his book "on the proper performance of Beethoven Works" Czerny gives the quarter at 116 and he does indicate the last variation must be played lively (which I interpret as faster).

Now I understand you are trying to follow the proper indications, but that said Czerny was a professional virtuoso playing on light piano mechanism and you are an amateur playing a modern piano. So you should adjust the tempo at what you can execute so that it sounds musical and expressive rather than trying to reach any particular tempo target. Listen to the music and find the tempo which allows you to give justice to the musical content given your current abilities.

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mandan Offline OP
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I am really an amateaur pianist, but I am interested in the tempo markings of early editions. I bought also the score from Barenreiter which give the markings from the great Beethoven expert Jonathan Del Maar. Beethoven gave just in very rare cases the tempo indications for Simphonies, string quartets, septett, hammerklavier sonata, cantata, songs, fugue. Yes they played on fortepiano with lighter actions, but one should solve it on a modern piano as well it is not impossible I think.

There are many Beethoven Sonata editions from Czerny and there is a study about that.
https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/files/54586757/FULL_TEXT.PDF

Kovacevich follows the fast 60 indication of Czerny.



In Czerny first two editions he give 66 for half note.
Sonate pour le Piano–Forte par L. van Beethoven. Noevelle Édition exacte, / Sonate ... für das Pianoforte von L. van Beethoven, Vienna (Tobias Haslinger), 1828–1832. The presumed intended metronome marks for opp. 2 and 7 are found in Beethoven’s Masterpieces, being the entire of his Grand Sonatas for the Piano Forte, London (Robert Cocks) c1858-1859.
Sonate ... für das Pianoforte von L. van Beethoven, Vienna (Tobias Haslinger) 183?–1842.
https://imslp.org/wiki/Beethoven%27s_Masterpieces_%28Beethoven,_Ludwig_van%29

But in later editions there is 116 for quarter
Czerny, Carl, Von dem Vortrage: Dritter Theil aus Vollständige theoretisch-practische Pianoforte-Schule, op. 500, Vienna (Diabelli) 1839.

And 112 for quarter
Sonates pour le Piano, composes ... par Louis van Beethoven. Edition revue, corrigée, metronomisée et doigtée par Ch.
Czerny, Bonn (Simrock) 1856–1868.


In Moscheles Editions the tempo is more moderate
84 for quarter
Beethoven’s Works. Complete Edition, London (J.B.Cramer, Addison & Beale) 1834–1838/39.

and in two later editions 96 for quarter
Ludwig van Beethoven’s sämmtliche Sonaten für Pianoforte. Neu herausgegeben mit Bezeichnung des Zeitmasses und Fingersatzes van J. Moscheles, Professor am Conservatorium zu Leipzig/ Hallberger’s Pracht–Ausgabe der Classiker..., Stuttgart (Eduard Hallberger) c1858–1867 by the latest.
Sonates pour le Pianoforte seul composées par Louis van Beethoven. (Nouvelle Edition, revue et metronomisée par I. Moscheles.)/Stereotyp–Ausgave classischer Musikstücke Nr. 11–42, Wolfenbüttel (Ludwig Holle) 1853–before 1858.
Moscheles give 84 and 96 for quarter which would be 42 and 48 for half.

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Do you know what is andante? Andante is a tempo of normal, calm walking. Before starting to play, imagine for a few seconds that you walk in a calm manner in some nice place, and then begin playing in that pace, trying to hold that feeling.

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Originally Posted by mandan
In Czerny first two editions he give 66 for half note.
Sonate pour le Piano–Forte par L. van Beethoven. Noevelle Édition exacte, / Sonate ... für das Pianoforte von L. van Beethoven, Vienna (Tobias Haslinger), 1828–1832. The presumed intended metronome marks for opp. 2 and 7 are found in Beethoven’s Masterpieces, being the entire of his Grand Sonatas for the Piano Forte, London (Robert Cocks) c1858-1859.
Sonate ... für das Pianoforte von L. van Beethoven, Vienna (Tobias Haslinger) 183?–1842.
https://imslp.org/wiki/Beethoven%27s_Masterpieces_%28Beethoven,_Ludwig_van%29

But in later editions there is 116 for quarter
Czerny, Carl, Von dem Vortrage: Dritter Theil aus Vollständige theoretisch-practische Pianoforte-Schule, op. 500, Vienna (Diabelli) 1839.

And 112 for quarter
Sonates pour le Piano, composes ... par Louis van Beethoven. Edition revue, corrigée, metronomisée et doigtée par Ch.
Czerny, Bonn (Simrock) 1856–1868.

Czerny changed often his tempo markingsin his various editions. It is the same for his Bach editions. Sometimes there are drastic differences and most of the time the later editions have slower tempi.

Czerny participated or published himself 4 editions of B works during his lifetime. The first 2 are for Haslinger but because of editing rights the set is not complete and the exact date of publication is unknown. Czerny was only one of the editor of the first one though he was the only pianist. The marks in the secont imprint are usually slower. So it is not certain that the changes were made by Czerny himself. The 3rd set of marks is given in his opus 500 which is the one I mentionned.

The last set is in the Simrock edition but which has been published over an extended period of time, most of which after Czerny died. In 1856 Simrock published Opus 2-57 except opus 22 and opus 54; the rest was published in 1862 and 1868.

The Cock edition was done after Czerny died and contains all sonatas except opus 106. Though the title page says it was done by Czerny, most experts believe likely only the metronome marks are from Czerny. The majority of the marks are identical to the first Haslinger edition, but some are identical to the second Haslinger edition (31/3, 101, 109, 111) and some are similar though not identical (usually faster) to the Simrock.

There are 8 known editions that use Moscheles marks. I wont into details, but based on detailled analysis of the various metronome marks, some of the marks found in the Simrock editions are probably not from Czerny but from Moscheles.

Another point to consider is that Czerny did not study all sonatas with Beethoven but only some of them, and he also did not hear all of them played by B. Therefore his metronome marks do not necessarily reflect B input but his own. It seems also that the main strong differences between the tempis found in the Haslinger and his opus 500 are due to Czerny own decision to adapt the tempi to practice of his time.

Finally some of the tempi given by Czerny dont match B tempi when they exist. For example the adagio of opus 22 or opus 18 are given by B at 8th=138 and 132 when Czerny gives 100 to 116.

All in all, these historic indications are interesting but include a number of issues and uncertainties. Some of Czerny tempi in his studies are extremely fast and a few are technically impossible. Certainly using a light mechanism was in favor of faster tempis and the tendancy of the time was to play faster than what we typically do today. Most of them are doable on a modern piano but the sound is also a question and some of the tempi must be adjusted due to the dark color of the modern piano. For amateurs who are less skilled than pro pianists, the fast tempis have to be reviewed so that they can be executed.

In this case a half note at 66 is perfectly playable. If you can execute musically and your musical sense tell you that this is the right tempo, you can try it, but a slower one works just as well.

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Nice. Did you want feedback on it? I wasn't going to suggest anything as I'm still learning his music but I think Beethoven is very typical to have rapid and sudden dynamic changes. I have not really heard many people play his sonatas and when they do not very well. It probably just need a lot practice. Well played

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I am happy that you liked my playing.

I am sending you a first attempt as well, which I couldn't finish somehow, there were ascending notes in my left, and somehow it is the first time in the piece and it was such a surprise for me, although playing the piece since beginning of july, I forgot how to continue the piece. But this first recording is maybe more calm and concentrated than the second. And it is very relaxed and confortable cosy.

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I always to use a score so it avoids this issue of a memory lapse in a performance. As to you question about how to manage the sudden changes in dynamics. If suddenly going to loud from soft then my teacher taught me two technique to get a louder sound by pressing keys faster. Landings with weight onto keys or with fingers on keys if legato needed. Also collection of hand works well or collection of fingers so you use small muscles on hands. I think you can also use time effectively. A small pause in time before a SF or after it ready works. I haven't the advice for your piece, it is harder than my Beethoven sonata which is the easy one, but I hope your teacher can help you find effective strategy. Thanks for sharing.

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I dont know if you were expecting any feedback or comments so i will refrain. But looking at your position i find that you are sitting really close to the piano. Your elbows are constantly blocked by your body and you are using most of the bench which limits your ability to move. It is more difficult in that position to make stronger chords. In a piece like this the compass is rather limited but in a more extended piece it will be more of an issue. But if you feel comfortable in that position, .... discuss with your teacher.

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