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For the math nerds. There is an infinite number of points between 0 and 1. Acoustic instruments capture that, while digitals cannot. Digitals can only approximate that.
The output of a digital instrument is an analog signal (sound) with infinite points between 0 and 1 too.
The speakers convert the digital output signal to analog sound. Acoustic instruments don’t need speakers or a power cord.
Last edited by j&j; 11/20/2105:55 PM.
J & J Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty Casio Privia P230 At least half the waiters in Nashville play better than I
For the math nerds. There is an infinite number of points between 0 and 1. Acoustic instruments capture that, while digitals cannot. Digitals can only approximate that.
The output of a digital instrument is an analog signal (sound) with infinite points between 0 and 1 too.
The speakers convert the digital output signal to analog sound. Acoustic instruments don’t need speakers or a power cord.
Speakers converts analog electrical signal to sound. You are very confident, even though you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Such threads are pointless, you want simple answer to question about extremely complex topic, there just isn't a simple answer.
Originally Posted by An Old Square
I've discussed this with scientists at Los Alamos National Labs (as their tuner after tuning over coffee).
The consensus is that *in theory*, it should be possible to make them indistinguishable.
The gap between theory and reality according to them can only be filled with computing power that will never be devoted to the task, and speaker design no one will ever spend the money to create - because neither national security nor a fat pot of gold at the end of the rainbow are involved.
These are the folks that create computer models of the entire universe, so to them, in theory, it's a pretty trivial problem on a technical level.
What isn't trivial are the resources required to do it.
Thats true, you could say that there are 3 main parts in digital piano, there is an input device (keyboard and action with sensors), sound generator and output device (speakers).
First part is almost there in Yamaha and Kawai hybrids.
Second part is extremely complex and requires huge amount of computing power but computers should be fast enough now to deal with it (I mean computer that can fit in digital piano) just nobody actually cares about it and is willing to put enough money to develop such thing.
Third part is equally as important or even more than second. In real piano sound is generated by soundboard which has comparatively big area and isn't a point source like ordinary speaker, also it is an acoustic dipole and a large one unlike ordinary speaker. Unfortunately there is no way around it, if you want accurate reproduction of piano sound you need something that is physically similar, large electrostatic dipoles with most likely multi-zone driving (extremely expensive) or distributed mode loudspeakers (which are actually real soundboards with electromagnetic drivers), as I said there is no way around it, if yo want sound of a concert grand, you need something of shape and shize of a concert grand with sound generating membrane as large as concert grand soundboard.
It is a shame that YOU were not the person there discussing this!!! Would have been more stimulating for the scientists.
The speakers convert the digital output signal to analog sound. Acoustic instruments don’t need speakers or a power cord.
I think I misunderstood you. I thought you meant to say that there are 'gaps' in digital information, unlike in analog information (e.g. the audiophile vinyl vs dvd issue) and that therefore in the end it sounds worse. But this is not the case, perhaps counterintuitively. Digital signals, based on zeros and ones, can contain all the information to recreate a recorded analog signal. So this is not a reason why a dvd or digital piano should sound worse. Since your brought up math, see Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem, which explains an important part of this story. Of course digital sounds are only good if sampling rates and quantization are sufficiently high, but even inexpensive audio devices nowadays are able to do so to a very accurate degree.
Whether or not one likes to play a dvd vs vinyl, or attributes a soul to them, is another matter. And whether or not the digital samples in a piano are sufficiently good is also another matter. I believe often they often are not, which is why people resort to virtual instruments on their computers, which are more powerful.
Personally I don't think digital/electronic equipment is the source of the lack of 'soul' in a digital piano. I think it is the way the sound is modeled. It is too simplistic. I essence it is a bunch of recordings of individual notes that are summed. In a real piano there is interaction between notes. An A and C played together is not just the sum of an individual A an an individual C. There is interaction, which is going to be unique for different note combinations and timings. And there is variation in sound because of temperature and humidity variation. Together this makes sound from an acoustic instrument more varied and complex and thus less predictable and less boring.
If on your right hand you are sustaining a chord and you play a root note on your left hand it will sound different depending on the acoustic energy remaining on the right hand. 8 BIT MIDI has too many limitations to begin to replicate the colouring available on a piano. Try holding a chord and half pedaling and play a melody staccato and legato. It will be different on a piano, but will just replicate the static sampled sound within an 8 bit dynamic range, which in practice is rarely more than 18 or so volume steps.
In any case I don't know if 8 midi bits (aren't there 7?) are sufficient for hammer velocity representation or not, but that is an implementation limitation. Not a fundamental one that would cause digital instruments to lack soul. If the resolution is too low to capture the gradations that pianists can use, you can simply increase the resolution. In fact MIDI 2 has 16,384 velocities.
Digital pianos, especially the on board sound generators, are very limited in the number of layers they use (much fewer than the number of midi velocity levels), the strong compression they use, and all kinds of other tricks that decreases the quality of the sound. No doubt.
“In contrast, the digital piano has no strings. Each key is a switch to produce a specific sound, so to speak. An electronic tone generator produces the sounds, which are amplified using a speaker. “ Yamaha website
It’s the electronic sound generator that does the digital to analog conversion, not the speaker itself. My error. The key is a switch. On or off. Played or not played. Digital signal. There are other sensors that measure the force of the press that controls the volume.
J & J Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty Casio Privia P230 At least half the waiters in Nashville play better than I
“In contrast, the digital piano has no strings. Each key is a switch to produce a specific sound, so to speak. An electronic tone generator produces the sounds, which are amplified using a speaker. “ Yamaha website
It’s the electronic sound generator that does the digital to analog conversion, not the speaker itself. My error. The key is a switch. On or off. Played or not played. Digital signal. There are other sensors that measure the force of the press that controls the volume.
I usually don't engage in controversial or highly technical discussions here, because I don't want to show my ignorance. That said, I will say that, based on my own experience, (for which there is no substitute) digital pianos can have faults and flaws in them, just like some acoustic pianos, despite the computer technology and perfections that go into them.
I've mentioned this before, and this seems like an opportunity to mention it again... my first digital piano was a Yamaha P90 stage piano. I did the research, and knew it didn't have onboard speakers, but had pretty good reviews, and, it was a Yamaha after all. I think I paid a little over a $1000 for it from BH Photo Video, a large, online electronics seller. They had the lowest price on the P90.
I had purchased a new Peavey keyboard amp at a local music store so when I received the P90 I would ready to play (although I could use headphones with the P90). When the Yamaha P90 arrived, I set it up on the stand, plugged all the cords in, and started playing. I was thrilled and excited to begin with.
However, I begin to notice some strange ringing overtones in some upper treble notes. I tried to make adjustments to the amp, and the P90, to no avail. The odd ringing overtones in the upper treble notes were annoying, and I was very disappointed. I thought it might be the Peavey keyboard amp, so I took it back the music store for a refund, and the owner of the store gave me a hard time about taking the amp back, but he did give me a refund. I then purchased the Roland KC350 keyboard amp from another music store.
After getting the new keyboard amp plugged in and set up, the odd ringing overtones were still there. I called BH Photo and told them about the issue with the P90 and that I was not satisfied with it, and could I send it back for a refund. They said I could not send it back for a refund and would have to deal with Yamaha warranty service. To make a long story short, (which I have a difficult time doing) Yamaha warranty service emailed me and said there was nothing wrong with the P90 and it must be my hearing that was the problem. And, this was well before I actually did experience hearing problems.
The Yamaha customer service rep went on to say that the P90 was sampled with best acoustic piano in the entire world, the CF series concert grand. So, apparently, the Yamaha CF concert grand they used to record the digital samples for the P90 must have had some odd ringing overtones when the samples were recorded. (Perhaps not the best grand piano in the world?)
Not to ramble on here, which I know I'm bad about doing, I will say that digital pianos are no better than the piano used to record the digital samples used in the electronics of the digital. Bad sounding samples = bad sounding digital piano.
Thing is, an odd overtone on most acoustic pianos can be fixed or critiqued to sound better by a good piano tech. Bad sounding overtones on a digital piano can't be fixed and are there forever.
Regarding the P90, upon further research, I read online that I was not the only one complaining about the odd ringing overtones on the P90. Perhaps they've corrected that by now, but I'd be very reluctant to purchase another Yamaha digital piano.
But I do indeed love Yamaha acoustic pianos; any flaws in them can actually be fixed...
Rick
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
“In contrast, the digital piano has no strings. Each key is a switch to produce a specific sound, so to speak. An electronic tone generator produces the sounds, which are amplified using a speaker. “ Yamaha website
It’s the electronic sound generator that does the digital to analog conversion, not the speaker itself. My error. The key is a switch. On or off. Played or not played. Digital signal. There are other sensors that measure the force of the press that controls the volume.
I usually don't engage in controversial or highly technical discussions here, because I don't want to show my ignorance. That said, I will say that, based on my own experience, (for which there is no substitute) digital pianos can have faults and flaws in them, just like some acoustic pianos, despite the computer technology and perfections that go into them.
I've mentioned this before, and this seems like an opportunity to mention it again... my first digital piano was a Yamaha P90 stage piano. I did the research, and knew it didn't have onboard speakers, but had pretty good reviews, and, it was a Yamaha after all. I think I paid a little over a $1000 for it from BH Photo Video, a large, online electronics seller. They had the lowest price on the P90.
I had purchased a new Peavey keyboard amp at a local music store so when I received the P90 I would ready to play (although I could use headphones with the P90). When the Yamaha P90 arrived, I set it up on the stand, plugged all the cords in, and started playing. I was thrilled and excited to begin with.
However, I begin to notice some strange ringing overtones in some upper treble notes. I tried to make adjustments to the amp, and the P90, to no avail. The odd ringing overtones in the upper treble notes were annoying, and I was very disappointed. I thought it might be the Peavey keyboard amp, so I took it back the music store for a refund, and the owner of the store gave me a hard time about taking the amp back, but he did give me a refund. I then purchased the Roland KC350 keyboard amp from another music store.
After getting the new keyboard amp plugged in and set up, the odd ringing overtones were still there. I called BH Photo and told them about the issue with the P90 and that I was not satisfied with it, and could I send it back for a refund. They said I could not send it back for a refund and would have to deal with Yamaha warranty service. To make a long story short, (which I have a difficult time doing) Yamaha warranty service emailed me and said there was nothing wrong with the P90 and it must be my hearing that was the problem. And, this was well before I actually did experience hearing problems.
The Yamaha customer service rep went on to say that the P90 was sampled with best acoustic piano in the entire world, the CF series concert grand. So, apparently, the Yamaha CF concert grand they used to record the digital samples for the P90 must have had some odd ringing overtones when the samples were recorded. (Perhaps not the best grand piano in the world?)
Not to ramble on here, which I know I'm bad about doing, I will say that digital pianos are no better than the piano used to record the digital samples used in the electronics of the digital. Bad sounding samples = bad sounding digital piano.
Thing is, an odd overtone on most acoustic pianos can be fixed or critiqued to sound better by a good piano tech. Bad sounding overtones on a digital piano can't be fixed and are there forever.
Regarding the P90, upon further research, I read online that I was not the only one complaining about the odd ringing overtones on the P90. Perhaps they've corrected that by now, but I'd be very reluctant to purchase another Yamaha digital piano.
But I do indeed love Yamaha acoustic pianos; any flaws in them can actually be fixed...
Rick
Maybe I am off my rocker. The quote you captured is where I was explaining how a digital keyboard or piano used digital signals which are converted into analog sound signals to the speakers by the electronic sound generator. Yes electronics age out, burn out and change out which certainly does limit a digital pianos useful lifetime.
I’m just unsure if we had any disagreement on this thread Rick.
J & J Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty Casio Privia P230 At least half the waiters in Nashville play better than I
“In contrast, the digital piano has no strings. Each key is a switch to produce a specific sound, so to speak. An electronic tone generator produces the sounds, which are amplified using a speaker. “ Yamaha website
It’s the electronic sound generator that does the digital to analog conversion, not the speaker itself. My error. The key is a switch. On or off. Played or not played. Digital signal. There are other sensors that measure the force of the press that controls the volume.
I usually don't engage in controversial or highly technical discussions here, because I don't want to show my ignorance. That said, I will say that, based on my own experience, (for which there is no substitute) digital pianos can have faults and flaws in them, just like some acoustic pianos, despite the computer technology and perfections that go into them.
I've mentioned this before, and this seems like an opportunity to mention it again... my first digital piano was a Yamaha P90 stage piano. I did the research, and knew it didn't have onboard speakers, but had pretty good reviews, and, it was a Yamaha after all. I think I paid a little over a $1000 for it from BH Photo Video, a large, online electronics seller. They had the lowest price on the P90.
I had purchased a new Peavey keyboard amp at a local music store so when I received the P90 I would ready to play (although I could use headphones with the P90). When the Yamaha P90 arrived, I set it up on the stand, plugged all the cords in, and started playing. I was thrilled and excited to begin with.
However, I begin to notice some strange ringing overtones in some upper treble notes. I tried to make adjustments to the amp, and the P90, to no avail. The odd ringing overtones in the upper treble notes were annoying, and I was very disappointed. I thought it might be the Peavey keyboard amp, so I took it back the music store for a refund, and the owner of the store gave me a hard time about taking the amp back, but he did give me a refund. I then purchased the Roland KC350 keyboard amp from another music store.
After getting the new keyboard amp plugged in and set up, the odd ringing overtones were still there. I called BH Photo and told them about the issue with the P90 and that I was not satisfied with it, and could I send it back for a refund. They said I could not send it back for a refund and would have to deal with Yamaha warranty service. To make a long story short, (which I have a difficult time doing) Yamaha warranty service emailed me and said there was nothing wrong with the P90 and it must be my hearing that was the problem. And, this was well before I actually did experience hearing problems.
The Yamaha customer service rep went on to say that the P90 was sampled with best acoustic piano in the entire world, the CF series concert grand. So, apparently, the Yamaha CF concert grand they used to record the digital samples for the P90 must have had some odd ringing overtones when the samples were recorded. (Perhaps not the best grand piano in the world?)
Not to ramble on here, which I know I'm bad about doing, I will say that digital pianos are no better than the piano used to record the digital samples used in the electronics of the digital. Bad sounding samples = bad sounding digital piano.
Thing is, an odd overtone on most acoustic pianos can be fixed or critiqued to sound better by a good piano tech. Bad sounding overtones on a digital piano can't be fixed and are there forever.
Regarding the P90, upon further research, I read online that I was not the only one complaining about the odd ringing overtones on the P90. Perhaps they've corrected that by now, but I'd be very reluctant to purchase another Yamaha digital piano.
But I do indeed love Yamaha acoustic pianos; any flaws in them can actually be fixed...
Rick
Maybe I am off my rocker. The quote you captured is where I was explaining how a digital keyboard or piano used digital signals which are converted into analog sound signals to the speakers by the electronic sound generator. Yes electronics age out, burn out and change out which certainly does limit a digital pianos useful lifetime.
I’m just unsure if we had any disagreement on this thread Rick.
No disagreement whatsoever, j&j. I just quoted your post as a catalyst to get me started on my rant about the Yamaha P90 I purchased, which turned out to be a bad experience in more ways than one.
If fact, I think we are in perfect agreement regarding digital pianos.
Also, I might add, when I purchased my Casio Privia PX310 digital, I tried out the display model at the store before I purchased, specifically listening for any odd, annoying ringing overtones, which there were none. So, whatever acoustic piano they used to sample the notes for the Casio was tuned and prepped to perfection.
Rick
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
To go off at a tangent, do some acoustic pianos have more "soul" than others? I'd say my Ibach does, but maybe that's because it's a bit more decrepit than the Schiedmayer.
Ian Russell Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
To go off at a tangent, do some acoustic pianos have more "soul" than others? I'd say my Ibach does, but maybe that's because it's a bit more decrepit than the Schiedmayer.
No acoustic pianos have a soul to any degree. Many have a distinctive sound or interesting history.
Soul comes in surprising ways sometimes even through this rather twangy keyboard.(perhaps meant to imitate a clavichord) The tenor is contrasting though in its richness.
Soul comes in surprising ways sometimes even through this rather twangy keyboard.(perhaps meant to imitate a clavichord) The tenor is contrasting though in its richness.https://youtu.be/AYUolZUf8b0
I think any reaction you have to that video is related to the piece and not the instrument.
Soul comes in surprising ways sometimes even through this rather twangy keyboard.(perhaps meant to imitate a clavichord) The tenor is contrasting though in its richness.https://youtu.be/AYUolZUf8b0
I think any reaction you have to that video is related to the piece and not the instrument.
Pianoloverus Can you define soul?
My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love. In other words a hymn. That is all, but that is enough. tre corda
Soul comes in surprising ways sometimes even through this rather twangy keyboard.(perhaps meant to imitate a clavichord) The tenor is contrasting though in its richness.https://youtu.be/AYUolZUf8b0
I think any reaction you have to that video is related to the piece and not the instrument.
Pianoloverus Can you define soul?
It's not something a piano has. That's just a marketing ploy used by some piano rebuilders or those that sell old pianos.
Yes perhaps but pianists on digital pianos often feel a spritual connection when playing just as pianists on accoustic pianos. A new piano may have soul as well.It is not really my way of describing music though..Recently I played an old Steinway K52 which had the most "heavenly sound"A lovely treble with a wonderful sustain.
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