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Like the first one on the following list?
https://www.modartt.com/velocity_curves

Doesn't it make playing piano and pp difficult?

That said, I believe the root of my issue lies somewhere else, as playing fortissimo still doesn't as bright/lively as say, those Nord samples. I even tried the standard edition and the hammer settings didn't do much.

For now, I instill to myself that this is a different kind of piano than Nord or other sampled sounds, as in a real acoustic one, so it just has to sound different. This can prevent me from fiddling too much and wasting so much time.

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Originally Posted by meghdad
Like the first one on the following list?
https://www.modartt.com/velocity_curves

Doesn't it make playing piano and pp difficult?

.

In a sense, yes. About the same as you'd find on an acoustic, or at least, those I've tried in the shop. But it's light on the fingers and that's what I need right now.
You see, I'm getting on a bit . . . . smile


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Originally Posted by meghdad
. . .
Please note that the speakers sound fine for playing back recorded piano music or sample libraries. So it's the speakers are not to blame.

@Charles Cohen: Could you please upload one of your presets that sounds good to you, so that I can check it too?
. . .

(a) I used two "stock" presets in PTeq version 7.4.2, without any "velocity" adjustments.

I picked out the Steinway D Pop (lots of "punch", says Pianoteq), modified to "Binaural" output, and tried it with the stock "Blues Demo" MIDI file, with AKG "K240 Studio" headphones. I was using my laptop's sound card (Realtek, if that's a brand):

. . . It sounded quite bright to me, and not "muffled" at all.

I switched to "monophonic" mode in Pianoteq, and listened to it over my EV ZXA1 monitor, at something like "live piano" volume:

. . . The LH sounded rather quiet, but I suspect that's how it was played. Still the overall sound was bright, and not muffled.

Then I tried my most-used preset -- Grotrian Player (set to monophonic)-- through the speaker:

. . . confirmed my opinion that the Grotrian doesn't have the brightness of the Steinway, and wasn't muffled either.

And the Grotrian Player (binaural) through the K240's:

. . . Essentially the same as through the speaker, except for a strong binaural "left hand in the left ear" effect.



(b) Now, I have admissions to make, so take these comments with several grains of salt:

. . . I have significant hearing loss above 4 kHz.

. . . I have never felt that I had "golden ears". I don't claim to be sensitive to small changes in EQ. I can hear distortion just fine.

. . . When I first played the Grotrian, I said "I'm not buying any more models -- this is what a piano should sound like."


(c) It's quite possible that Pianoteq won't match a set of Nord samples, no matter how much fiddling you do:

. . . But why should you believe the Nord samples are "honest" -- direct-from-the-mic, unprocessed, un-equalized ?


(d) Having said all this, there is a "religious argument" (one with strong opinions, and no way to really test which side is right) in the background:

One side is

. . . "Pianoteq is very playable, and gives a close-enough approximation to an acoustic piano's tone so that I use it."

The other side is:

. . . "Pianoteq's sound is quite different from an acoustic pianos, I find it unpleasant, and that overrides any advantages of its "playability" (if they exist)."

I'm not going to try and convince you that my ears are "right", and your ears are "wrong". You are free to throw Pianoteq in the trash, and use sample-based virtual pianos. If you hear it as "muffled", that's all that really counts.


. Charles
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I agree that Pianoteq is very playable , many people find that sentence to be true. However the sound is just too nasal to be unnoticeable (it's a more fit term). On some presets it's muffled as well, but as you pointed out, some of them are actually bright, like the one I'm using (Steinway D bright), which is a good thing. Still the nasal quality is there in all presets. On my mediocre headphones, it sounds quite synthetic as opposed to the Korg's internal sounds, which sound more piano-like and real. The timbre is just different.
I had to buy Pianoteq because of its play-ability and sympathetic resonance and overall the features are more like a typical acoustic piano (like the sustain time and the aforementioned stuff...). BUT the character of the sound leaves a lot to be desired.

While I am getting on with my practice sessions, I still get distracted by the thought of fiddling more to achieve sound realism, though I'm really trying to avoid that.

You said ". . . But why should you believe the Nord samples are "honest" -- direct-from-the-mic, unprocessed, un-equalized ?"
I have a question. If we assume that Pianoteq'a engine is perfect at producing precise piano sounds, then it must be a matter of setting up correct processing/effects to reach a sound like the Nord's, am I right? I mean

Another question. Could it be that the sample rate is too low in the standard and stage editions? It's capped at 48khz. I'm gonna try the pro version and find out! Oops... no trial version.

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About my last question, I found the following discussion: https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=5697

It's divided between pro 192khz and "no big difference" people. Not sure if that helps with the issue at hand though, skimming over it, it seems it's irrelevant.

Perhaps someone using Garrittan or Nord can confirm by limiting their output resolution to 48khz, assuming the sampes are hi-fi, which I believe they are.

Last edited by meghdad; 11/04/21 04:05 AM.
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According to my experiences with Pianoteq getting velocity curve right is mandatory. (Like pointed previously in this thread). Otherwise the sound is either muffled or harsh. With my old Casio CDP-230 it was really hard to get the velocity curve right. With my current Kawai MP11SE it was a lot easier. I found better curves in the internet to start tweaking with. I think you should take your time with velocity curve before giving up with Pianoteq. Find closest match of premade curve to your keyboard and start matching it to your playing style and desired voice preference. It will take some time but I think it is wort it.

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Originally Posted by Kihar
According to my experiences with Pianoteq getting velocity curve right is mandatory. (Like pointed previously in this thread). Otherwise the sound is either muffled or harsh. With my old Casio CDP-230 it was really hard to get the velocity curve right. With my current Kawai MP11SE it was a lot easier. I found better curves in the internet to start tweaking with. I think you should take your time with velocity curve before giving up with Pianoteq. Find closest match of premade curve to your keyboard and start matching it to your playing style and desired voice preference. It will take some time but I think it is wort it.

The VPC1 Pianoteq preset works nicely also.


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Yes, this is very, very important. Slight changes can make a huge difference. A VPC1 with it's standard curve sounds harsh and metallic with PIanoteq, and much better with the built-in PIanoteq velocity curve.


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Originally Posted by meghdad
About my last question, I found the following discussion: https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=5697

It's divided between pro 192khz and "no big difference" people. Not sure if that helps with the issue at hand though, skimming over it, it seems it's irrelevant.

Perhaps someone using Garrittan or Nord can confirm by limiting their output resolution to 48khz, assuming the sampes are hi-fi, which I believe they are.

In general, it depends on the quality and performance of your audio interface or DAC. I currently use a combination of internal 96K and 192K output for my DAC.
I compared the internal output from 48K to 192K, and selected 96K for overall performance and playability. With the 192K output, my computer can't handle fast notes.
I heard more high-frequency details at 96K compared to the 48K internal output, and the overall sound was smoother.
Of course, whether 48K or 96K, I set the over-sampling rate of the audio interface to 192K, which means it must be an integer multiple of 48K. This allows for using both a larger buffer setting and a shorter delay.

Last edited by robinlb; 11/04/21 08:16 PM.

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Just for reference: I tried the Bechstein and Steinway B, and both sounded more bright and direct than either Petrof and Steinway D. Unfortunately I can't change them now (I bought the license from another person so no option to change packs during the purchase either). Oh well, they're still very good!

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Originally Posted by eddiepiano
Yes, this is very, very important. Slight changes can make a huge difference. A VPC1 with it's standard curve sounds harsh and metallic with PIanoteq, and much better with the built-in PIanoteq velocity curve.
@eddiepiano: I'm also using the VPC-1 - would you be able to share your velocity settings inside pianoteq with your most preferred piano model while leaving the VPC-1 on default (straight diagonal up from left to right, LED red)?


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So after finally "giving in" and changing my mindset regarding the velocity curve, I created a modified version of the slow keyboard velocity curve preset, and now it sounds very much like the DP's internal curve, which I enjoy, with the overall volume being much higher and the sound quality much more direct. Still a bit nasal and different from those Nord samples, though not muffled anymore. Cool. :-)
Also now it feels rather nicer to play , similar to the DP's builtin sound and curve, as I believe it's really set up in a way to match the "heaviness" of the keys, and so the little delicacies felt in pressing the keys are more obvious and tangible now. Korg's RH3 is great again haha. This is contrary to my teacher's advice, that is to make the keys heavier to play by , like the "hard" touch setting, but that muffled the sound and made the keys' heaviness out of touch with the force required to play forte for example.

@Charles Cohen thank you as well.

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Meghdad --

I'm glad you found a combination of piano model / Pianoteq settings / velocity curve that works for you!<g>

All those things interact, and not in simple ways.

Now you can get back to practicing . . .


. Charles
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today, Pianoteq 7.5 new update, available with revoicing ( 15 december 2021)

Regards,

Olivier F.

Last edited by owfrappier; 12/15/21 05:29 PM.

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Originally Posted by owfrappier
today, Pianoteq 7.5 new update, available with revoicing ( 15 december 2021)

Regards,

Olivier F.

i like some of the re-voiced presets on the Steinway Ds - particularly those near the top of the preset lists, and particularly the NY D

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With the new update the Ant Petrof won a lot. Seems like the "most realistic" piano now.

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Originally Posted by Syld
With the new update the Ant Petrof won a lot. Seems like the "most realistic" piano now.
I reckoned they'd done that with 7.3. I daren't upgrade; I might have to change all my settings . . .like, back on the treadmill that never ends!
Talkin' of which, i wish I could get back on the treadmill. Our gym might be like, "business as usual" but I'm not so happy about that . . . .

Last edited by peterws; 12/16/21 11:58 AM.

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Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Syld
With the new update the Ant Petrof won a lot. Seems like the "most realistic" piano now.
I reckoned they'd done that with 7.3. I daren't upgrade; I might have to change all my settings . . .like, back on the treadmill that never ends!

Hey Peter, I've just upgraded from 7.4.1 to 7.5.1. The new version revoiced the NY Steinway D, HB Steinway D, Steinway B, Ant. Petrof, Petrof Mistral, C. Bechstein DG, Steingraeber and Bl├╝thner. I kept my fingers crossed - but every setting on my current favourite Petrof Mistral was exactly as I'd left it, and I love its new voice. I definitely recommend the upgrade.


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