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Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
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Hi-Fi and passive speakers are dead and are for the hobbyist.

Passive monitor:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/M2System--jbl-m2-reference-monitor-system

I see zero value in terms of music production in them, including what you just posted


The market for the M2 reference speakers would be as main monitors in a mastering studio. Mastering is different from mixing and has different requirements.

These are not efficient speakers and the recommended amp power is 1200 watts/channel. While such amps could be mounted in the speaker enclosure in principle, heat dissipation likely would be inadequate. It also is more convenient to access amplifier controls with the amp mounted in a rack than having to use controls at the back of the speaker. Then you can operate the controls while in the listening position of the speakers to hear the effect of a change from that position. Some will have that preference.

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The importance of the flat frequency response is something beyond the silly videos posted here. Not that it is rocket science, but it is a form of standardization of a sonic experience.

If you are in music production, you need a baseline for the mix.
When you are doing mix engineering you need that. The skill set and equipment for mixing and mastering is different enough that there are mixing studios and there mastering studios. The mastering engineer needs monitors that are high dynamic range to make compression and gain level decisions, and that are full frequency range and as flat as possible to make equalization decisions.

Last edited by Sweelinck; 10/27/21 03:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Quote
Hi-Fi and passive speakers are dead and are for the hobbyist.

Passive monitor:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/M2System--jbl-m2-reference-monitor-system

I see zero value in terms of music production in them, including what you just posted


The market for the M2 reference speakers would be as main monitors in a mastering studio. Mastering is different from mixing and has different requirements.

These are not efficient speakers and the recommended amp power is 1200 watts/channel. While such amps could be mounted in the speaker enclosure in principle, heat dissipation likely would be inadequate. It also is more convenient to access amplifier controls with the amp mounted in a rack than having to use controls at the back of the speaker. Then you can operate the controls while in the listening position of the speakers to hear the effect of a change from that position. Some will have that preference.

The speakers you introduced have two independent receivers. They aren't passive in reality. If you remove the guts of any active speaker it's a passive speaker + an amp.

That said, those Crown I-T5000 HD amplifiers must have some extraordinary capabilities to drive these speakers to their full. It is not like you buy these JBL speakers and throw in any amps and expect an exceptional output from them. In fact, if they are chosen poorly the entire setup can sound pretty bad.

Try hooking these "passive" speakers with your own (custom-made hi-fi etc) receivers and see how they sound

Last edited by Abdol; 10/27/21 04:49 PM.

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Quote
The importance of the flat frequency response is something beyond the silly videos posted here. Not that it is rocket science, but it is a form of standardization of a sonic experience.

If you are in music production, you need a baseline for the mix.
When you are doing mix engineering you need that. The skill set and equipment for mixing and mastering is different enough that there are mixing studios and there mastering studios. The mastering engineer needs monitors that are high dynamic range to make compression and gain level decisions, and that are full frequency range and as flat as possible to make equalization decisions.


thanks...


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So I quickly took a look at the Crown I-T5000 HD amps. They are worth around 12000-13000 USD. And to my understanding, the crossover is adjustable in addition to some other fancy but necessary features through software.

So technically speaking (if I understood the manual correctly) you can pair these with many different speakers.

So you are paying quite a lot of premium for something that an active pair of speakers don't really need: adjusting hardware parameters.

The amp that comes with an active speaker doesn't need adjustment, as it is already tailored to the drivers and tweeters.

This is independent of mixing, mastering, nearfield, far-field, or mid-field usage.

Last edited by Abdol; 10/27/21 05:00 PM.

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Ever since my positive experiences with a pair of powered speakers, I've since had a soft spot in my heart for them. The separate amp and speakers take extra desk space if going for passive, and I feel like someone who has a stable sound signature they are looking for, a powered speaker is easier for me to get to that kind of sound. If you have the time and hobby to research and build your passive system, glory to you! But for me, a simple desktop set up that has good enough bass is enough. smile

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The hard part for me is to get my monitors to sound a lot like my headphones, so I could switch between silent practice at night and monitors in the morning. I play mainly out of my desktop with VSTIs and SFZs. Hopefully I could find a good EQ with the ability to save user presets

Last edited by josh_sounds; 10/28/21 11:15 PM.

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Maybe some of you would like to comment on how stage monitors perform at assorted distances. Can I use small monitors (6 or 8 inch) if I place them very close, just like we do with studio monitors? Or will the bass end disappear all the same?

Without first buying some small speakers I can't really test these things. Any tips on what sort of nominal bass end (Hz) I should shop for to reproduce piano patches would be welcome. I play jazz in assorted styles, so I need quite a lot of the bass notes, but I want them to sound incisive. I don't want them to boom as they do on so many (cheap?) speakers with large woofers, and for me the mids are crucial.

So should I fuss over some optimum speaker size? Or is it all about quality?

And can anyone comment on the Yamaha DBR10 and the DXR10? Good candidates?


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Originally Posted by josh_sounds
The hard part for me is to get my monitors to sound a lot like my headphones, so I could switch between silent practice at night and monitors in the morning. I play mainly out of my desktop with VSTIs and SFZs. Hopefully I could find a good EQ with the ability to save user presets

This is one of the reasons why the standardization of a flat frequency response and smooth directivity is important -- it would also give something for headphones to aspire to. In any case, it is easier to find headphones that can sound like a good pair of speakers than the other way around. In general, for *most* people, a headphone that follows the 'harman curve' or harman target will have similar tonality to a flat pair of speakers in a good room. There's some variability due to individual anatomical differences and preferences, but this has been demonstrated to be true for a majority of listeners in multiple papers.

Originally Posted by anotherpianoplayer
Maybe some of you would like to comment on how stage monitors perform at assorted distances. Can I use small monitors (6 or 8 inch) if I place them very close, just like we do with studio monitors? Or will the bass end disappear all the same?

Without first buying some small speakers I can't really test these things. Any tips on what sort of nominal bass end (Hz) I should shop for to reproduce piano patches would be welcome. I play jazz in assorted styles, so I need quite a lot of the bass notes, but I want them to sound incisive. I don't want them to boom as they do on so many (cheap?) speakers with large woofers, and for me the mids are crucial.

So should I fuss over some optimum speaker size? Or is it all about quality?

And can anyone comment on the Yamaha DBR10 and the DXR10? Good candidates?

There are two things to consider: the speaker's frequency response and its output capability, which is basically how well it can maintain that frequency response at higher volume levels.

Think of it this way: You can get a 1-inch driver to output bass all the way down below 20Hz... that's basically what headphones do. The difference is that they are right next to your ear, so the absolute output requirements are much lower than, say speakers meant for a living room.

So more to the point of your question, distance isn't going to change the bass output capability of the speakers. What might be affected is that these speakers can play their low frequencies more cleanly because their absolute decibel requirements. But if they can't get down to 30 hz -- which describes most speakers of any size -- they aren't going to be able to at close distances either. In theory, you could attempt to EQ the speakers to have more bass at close distances, but this is unlikely to lead to good results.

The simple solution: get a subwoofer. Subwoofers are often misunderstood as being tools for excessive bass, but that's just one way of using them. Their more important roles in a high fidelity system is to 1)increase bass output in a linear, realistic fashion and 2) to help minimize the effect of room nodes that lead to an uneven sound below 400ish Hz or so in almost every room. Multiple subwoofers can dramatically help with this, in fact, but for a listener in a single position as you would be at the piano, this isn't too essential.

The addition of a properly integrated subwoofer will allow you to use smaller primary speakers and/or lessen the burden on those speakers, allowing themto play more cleanly at high volumes. Of course, they will also extend frequency response into the sub-bass, which IMO is essential for properly replicating the physical sensation of being in front of any instrument with low bass content.

Yamaha tends to be rather inconsistent with the performance of their speakers, but the DXR10 and DBR10 appear to be decent from the measurements I've seen.

I wouldn't trust any manufacturer provided frequency response range unless they actually have graphs measured in an anechoic chamber or using an equivalent method. There is no standard for how these ratings are achieved and that can alter results dramatically depending on the whims of the individual manufacturer . The only time a simple "X hz to X kHz" metric is useful is for comparing speakers from the same manufacturer, but even with this I've seen inconsistencies.

If anechoic data is available, I'd say extension down to ~45 Hz (-6dB) as a minimum, which should mean that in a room, which will add a bit of extra bass, you should have audible frequencies into the mid 30s.

Lastly, and I know this is a long post, but the most important thing for clean bass notes is proper room calibration (which a subwoofer will help with too). The fact of the matter is that in any typical room(as in, smaller than a large venue like a concert hall), the room itself begins to dominate how frequencies are presented below 400 Hz or so. Without room correction, *very* extensive room treatment, and/or a very unique and rare type of speaker, you simply cannot get an even response below these frequencies. At best, you can hope a speaker matches your individual room's characteristics, but the problem is much more effectively and reliably solved with room correction.

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Hi Napilopez,

Thanks for all the input. We were talking about monitors and distances and solutions that don't lose the bass end, but I had trouble quoting your post (it got very messy with assorted nested quotes) so I'm just replying from fresh.

Remember that I'm looking for stage monitors/speakers - a solution for playing at gigs rather than for home use. I don't think I need lots of raw volume since there will be a PA too (at least on the bigger gigs) but my music is largely improvised, and dependent on what other musicians do too, so hearing what I play in detail through the din of a big show or a small but noisy public is vital if I'm to play the right voicings and expression. But it's not just a functional need for clarity - I really want to enjoy the sound of my instrument too and have it sounding well for others. I have even considered using a studio monitor on my right (for definition) plus whatever on my left to make the sound bigger and warmer. I used to do that with my P80, since it has no monitors at all.

But I'll reconsider subwoofers after what you said. The combination of small speaker(s) plus sub(s) should guarantee strong mids, and I might get better bass results too. I just hope that there wouldn't be an adverse change in note character, such as a loss of tone or definition on those low piano notes. I'm sure, however, that sub(s) would be particularly useful on any occasion that I need to play a "bass" patch on the piano or from a backing track. My piano's bass patch is very hard to hear sometimes, partly (I imagine) because it needs to be felt too.


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Originally Posted by anotherpianoplayer
Remember that I'm looking for stage monitors/speakers -

I know you are looking for stage use... FWIW, I looked, and listened to stage monitors for home use. I did this at Sam Ash and Guitar Center. In short, I found stage systems to just sound awful... just awful. I really don't know why they do. Maybe they require a monster EQ job for wherever you use them, but I really don't know. They all sounded... well... like I was in the audience at a big concert. Honky is about the best description I can come up with. Just awful.

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Just to add to this thread, i bought a pair of jbl 305p for my kawai es920 few months ago, they were decent sounding for the price, but some keys near top of keyboard were distorting slightly, tried vsts through them also and was an even better experience, but still several notes didn't sound right.

Anyway i decided to return them and took a risk on a pair of iloud mtm monitors. This turned out to be a very great idea indeed. I played American concert D ivory 2 and garritan cfx through them and its almost like they're made for the speakers, they are very honest and detailed. I actually prefer a hi-fi sounding speaker to a flat monitor one for music listening, and i also thought for piano playing they'd be better, but i can't think of anything else I'd rather play piano and vsts through than my ilouds now. They are something else.

It could be I've not played through a proper pair of studio speakers before and it's new to me, but i can vouch for their quality, i have mine on mic stands, and i find them amazing, I've not even calibrated them yet to my room.

For digital piano playing and clarity/detail of the original sample these are ridiculously good, oh and you get more than enough bass too so no need for sub woofer.

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Originally Posted by mwf
Just to add to this thread, i bought a pair of jbl 305p for my kawai es920 few months ago, they were decent sounding for the price, but some keys near top of keyboard were distorting slightly, tried vsts through them also and was an even better experience, but still several notes didn't sound right.

Anyway i decided to return them and took a risk on a pair of iloud mtm monitors. This turned out to be a very great idea indeed. I played American concert D ivory 2 and garritan cfx through them and its almost like they're made for the speakers, they are very honest and detailed. I actually prefer a hi-fi sounding speaker to a flat monitor one for music listening, and i also thought for piano playing they'd be better, but i can't think of anything else I'd rather play piano and vsts through than my ilouds now. They are something else.

It could be I've not played through a proper pair of studio speakers before and it's new to me, but i can vouch for their quality, i have mine on mic stands, and i find them amazing, I've not even calibrated them yet to my room.

For digital piano playing and clarity/detail of the original sample these are ridiculously good, oh and you get more than enough bass too so no need for sub woofer.

Interesting. I have an ES8 with no monitors. I would really like to try some before committing but that doesn't seem possible. Definitely a different league to the Es920 internals? Thanks


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Originally Posted by stevedoz
Originally Posted by mwf
Just to add to this thread, i bought a pair of jbl 305p for my kawai es920 few months ago, they were decent sounding for the price, but some keys near top of keyboard were distorting slightly, tried vsts through them also and was an even better experience, but still several notes didn't sound right.

Anyway i decided to return them and took a risk on a pair of iloud mtm monitors. This turned out to be a very great idea indeed. I played American concert D ivory 2 and garritan cfx through them and its almost like they're made for the speakers, they are very honest and detailed. I actually prefer a hi-fi sounding speaker to a flat monitor one for music listening, and i also thought for piano playing they'd be better, but i can't think of anything else I'd rather play piano and vsts through than my ilouds now. They are something else.

It could be I've not played through a proper pair of studio speakers before and it's new to me, but i can vouch for their quality, i have mine on mic stands, and i find them amazing, I've not even calibrated them yet to my room.

For digital piano playing and clarity/detail of the original sample these are ridiculously good, oh and you get more than enough bass too so no need for sub woofer.

Interesting. I have an ES8 with no monitors. I would really like to try some before committing but that doesn't seem possible. Definitely a different league to the Es920 internals? Thanks

I really like the internal speakers of the es920, i dont see a need to play it through my ilouds, but obviously they lack bass so ilouds are good for that, I've always played vsts through cabinet speakers of other digital pianos and didn't like the sound, so I'm glad i got some monitor speakers that are not biased towards any particular sample sets.

For recording purposes i never use hardware dp samples now as they all sound poor, i only use vsts because they are far superior for recording. So my ilouds are mainly for playing good vsts through, I'm very happy with them for this purpose alone, i doubt i could do much better if I'm honest, not without spending double or triple the amount.

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Originally Posted by mwf
Originally Posted by stevedoz
Originally Posted by mwf
Just to add to this thread, i bought a pair of jbl 305p for my kawai es920 few months ago, they were decent sounding for the price, but some keys near top of keyboard were distorting slightly, tried vsts through them also and was an even better experience, but still several notes didn't sound right.

Anyway i decided to return them and took a risk on a pair of iloud mtm monitors. This turned out to be a very great idea indeed. I played American concert D ivory 2 and garritan cfx through them and its almost like they're made for the speakers, they are very honest and detailed. I actually prefer a hi-fi sounding speaker to a flat monitor one for music listening, and i also thought for piano playing they'd be better, but i can't think of anything else I'd rather play piano and vsts through than my ilouds now. They are something else.

It could be I've not played through a proper pair of studio speakers before and it's new to me, but i can vouch for their quality, i have mine on mic stands, and i find them amazing, I've not even calibrated them yet to my room.

For digital piano playing and clarity/detail of the original sample these are ridiculously good, oh and you get more than enough bass too so no need for sub woofer.

Interesting. I have an ES8 with no monitors. I would really like to try some before committing but that doesn't seem possible. Definitely a different league to the Es920 internals? Thanks

I really like the internal speakers of the es920, i dont see a need to play it through my ilouds, but obviously they lack bass so ilouds are good for that, I've always played vsts through cabinet speakers of other digital pianos and didn't like the sound, so I'm glad i got some monitor speakers that are not biased towards any particular sample sets.

For recording purposes i never use hardware dp samples now as they all sound poor, i only use vsts because they are far superior for recording. So my ilouds are mainly for playing good vsts through, I'm very happy with them for this purpose alone, i doubt i could do much better if I'm honest, not without spending double or triple the amount.

👌


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Originally Posted by stevedoz
Interesting. I have an ES8 with no monitors. I would really like to try some before committing but that doesn't seem possible. Definitely a different league to the Es920 internals? Thanks

I guess you mean with no separate monitors because I understand that the ES8 was supplied with at least 2 internal speakers. This was one of the factors which separated it from the MP7 stage piano. My P-255 came out a bit before the ES8, and the two were close rivals.

While I respect the speakers on my P-255, I know that I get a much richer sound in my studio (especially mids, curiously) when I hook up my MSP5 studio monitors. But, while the combined sound is glorious, I know it would be even better with a richer bass. Maybe the solution for me (and for you?) is combining a subwoofer with 5" studio monitors. You might get away with just the 5" monitors if you buy ones that are rich in bass, such as Presonus Eris5. I'm looking at the Presonus Eris Sub8 to combine with my MSP5 monitors.

Another interesting option is the Swissonic T204 combined studio monitor. Each compact cabinet has 2x4" woofers, 1x1.25" tweeter and 2x5.25" passive membranes (pseudo-subs) in the sides. Seems like an ideal spec for piano, but it's hard finding reliable reviews. Just having one of these (ideally not drowning your built-in stereo speakers) might revolutionise your sound.


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Originally Posted by anotherpianoplayer
Originally Posted by stevedoz
Interesting. I have an ES8 with no monitors. I would really like to try some before committing but that doesn't seem possible. Definitely a different league to the Es920 internals? Thanks

I guess you mean with no separate monitors because I understand that the ES8 was supplied with at least 2 internal speakers. This was one of the factors which separated it from the MP7 stage piano. My P-255 came out a bit before the ES8, and the two were close rivals.

While I respect the speakers on my P-255, I know that I get a much richer sound in my studio (especially mids, curiously) when I hook up my MSP5 studio monitors. But, while the combined sound is glorious, I know it would be even better with a richer bass. Maybe the solution for me (and for you?) is combining a subwoofer with 5" studio monitors. You might get away with just the 5" monitors if you buy ones that are rich in bass, such as Presonus Eris5. I'm looking at the Presonus Eris Sub8 to combine with my MSP5 monitors.

Another interesting option is the Swissonic T204 combined studio monitor. Each compact cabinet has 2x4" woofers, 1x1.25" tweeter and 2x5.25" passive membranes (pseudo-subs) in the sides. Seems like an ideal spec for piano, but it's hard finding reliable reviews. Just having one of these (ideally not drowning your built-in stereo speakers) might revolutionise your sound.

PS I have another reason for wanting a subwoofer. A member here suggested I get one so I can hear my bass better on gigs - I hope he meant gigs. I might even use my MSP5 monitors as gig monitors again (but with the sub this time) and buy other monitors (Swissonic?) for my studio. The MSP5 and the Eris Sub8 both have speaker grills fortunately, and I have 16mm mounting brackets attached to my MSP5s already.


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Originally Posted by mwf
Just to add to this thread, i bought a pair of jbl 305p for my kawai es920 few months ago, they were decent sounding for the price, but some keys near top of keyboard were distorting slightly, tried vsts through them also and was an even better experience, but still several notes didn't sound right.

Anyway i decided to return them and took a risk on a pair of iloud mtm monitors. This turned out to be a very great idea indeed. I played American concert D ivory 2 and garritan cfx through them and its almost like they're made for the speakers, they are very honest and detailed. I actually prefer a hi-fi sounding speaker to a flat monitor one for music listening, and i also thought for piano playing they'd be better, but i can't think of anything else I'd rather play piano and vsts through than my ilouds now. They are something else.

It could be I've not played through a proper pair of studio speakers before and it's new to me, but i can vouch for their quality, i have mine on mic stands, and i find them amazing, I've not even calibrated them yet to my room.

For digital piano playing and clarity/detail of the original sample these are ridiculously good, oh and you get more than enough bass too so no need for sub woofer.

This is very interesting. I'm not surprised that you've transitioned to a type of studio monitor now. HiFi amps/speakers tend to be coloured, distant sounding and lacking in definition IMO. The perspective of performing should be different to that of a listener 50 metres away from the piano.

The iLoud MTM speakers aren't the cheapest monitors, so the components and build should be really good. It surprises me that a 3.5" speaker can fill the bass properly, but at least there are two of them in each unit. While the bass is described as very good in several places, it is also said that they won't give the bass feel, like a subwoofer can.

I'm considering the Swissonic T204 combined monitors for my studio. The speaker spec looks very interesting for a pianist: 2x4" driver plus 2x5" pseudo-subwoofer, and a 1.25" tweeter, all in each unit. They had one rave review, but it wasn't exactly a pro review. The price is very modest. Dunno whether that's a good or bad thing.


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