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Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by ranjit
On the other hand, black keys are more ergonomic to play, usually. One of the first pieces I attempted was the Minute Waltz, because someone showed it to me and I thought it might be possible to pull off. The key signature definitely helped.

Originally Posted by Briguy65
I should perhaps correct my statement regarding seeing lots of people play well starting later. I should say they seem to "master" a song through following tutorials and what not, to at least make a song look decent. I'm not saying they look professional or anything, but they can impress me with that one song.
Yeah exactly. Developing a general solid technique is quite different from being able to play a piece and make it sound decent. I think just playing a piece may be easier as an adult in some cases, because you can sort of command your fingers to do it, lol, and you have the discipline to follow through.
Ranjit, I think most adults can be taught to play with excellent technique especially with beginner pieces. As you start to move up in more difficult pieces that is where technique starts to falter because the natural movements required to play at a high level are not ingrained and unfortunately these skills can’t be taught because our brains have lost their plasticity to make these complex fine motor movements natural.
I'm just saying that I haven't yet seen a single pianist who started late who can play at, say, the level required to get admission at a decent conservatory, which is imo the bare minimum which counts as professional in classical piano. It's not exactly about the difficulty of the pieces or the word "conservatory", but the kind of efficiency and natural ingrained movement which you see in all pianists of that caliber. You can even see it in children, and most professional pianists seen to know exactly what I mean when I ask this question. I personally don't know the extent of what's possible, and I feel like I've been making a lot of progress, so I don't want to jinx myself lol. But I find it hard to think of a single example. Out of the pianists mentioned above and of whose videos I could find and verify, only Dang Thai Son seems to have proper technique. I know people who acquired it starting at 12-13 (Graham Fitch started at 13 for example). Volodos seems to have started at 16 as well, so I suppose for extreme talents, they have pushed that age somewhat.

Anyway I know for certain what I'm talking about here, and have asked some good teachers about it as well. Teachers will not mention it to adult students usually to avoid needless discouragement, which is probably why many here seem to have not heard about it.

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What do you mean by ‘starting late’ in your post above and would not be admitted to a conservatory-/ teenager, over 20, over 40?


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Starting over 20. Also, to clarify, I'm talking about an actual decent conservatory, not just some university which calls itself one.

Last edited by ranjit; 10/20/21 01:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by ranjit
Anyway I know for certain what I'm talking about here

Oh well, if that’s the case. 😂🙄


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Gotta say, I don't like these types of discussions. Reiterating that same subject over and over again - can adult beginners make it or not...
It is very counter productive for an adult beginner to assume they are limited in what they can achieve. If they got the ear, the patience, and the right teacher(s), they'll eventually achieve whatever they want. Why prejudge your own chance of success based on other's experience? Are you the same as them? Give yourself a proper chance.

Regarding technical facility - yes, young people have better chance of getting it right naturally, without consciously thinking about it. Still, I see how far I've come in less than five years in that matter - from hands that looked like giant spiders, full of tension and pain, to where I'm now - I'm optimistic as to what I can achieve in five more years.
Saying "I can't be good at the piano because I didn't start as a child" is an excuse. You could be better now if you started young, yes.

Also, you don't have to look very far to find amazing adult beginners. For example, look at AndresVel, member of this forum. What he achieved in one year I haven't seen any child achieve. And there are many more examples from this forum.

And finally - to the OP: As others have said, I think you'll provide a much better inspiration if you show solid, well rounded progress, and play beautiful music. I was never impressed by those viral videos, but who cares what I think. Good luck! You can do it.


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I don’t have enough information to really judge whether you (or any other beginner) could actually learn one of these challenging pieces and have it sound good. That said, I can help you out with flashy pieces that sound more difficult than they are. I participated in a lot of piano competitions as a child. Here are some intermediate-ish pieces that might work:

Telemann, Fantasia in D Minor
Kuhlau, Allegro Burlesco Op. 88, No. 3
Burgmüller, L’Orage Op. 109, No. 13
Schumann, Important Event
Heller, Warrior’s Song Op. 45, No. 15
Moszkowsky, Scherzo Op. 18, No. 2
Pieczonka, Tarantella
Villa-Lobos, O Polichinelo

Check out this book and its sequel.

Last edited by Saan; 10/20/21 02:58 PM.

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Developing sufficient piano skill is one thing.

Becoming an internet sensation is another.


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Originally Posted by lilypad
I'm not qualified to give any sort of advice. But I can say that I envy how your hands appear in the video. Very relaxed and as if they're 'petting' the keys as I notice in concert pianist videos, vs. 'clawing' at the keys as I often observe in some self-taught beginners
...mmm..
do you have a link to the video where we can see the "very relaxed, concert pianist like" hands you are mentioning?
Must be a different one than the video in the topic starter's first post...😉

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Originally Posted by ranjit
[
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by ranjit
On the other hand, black keys are more ergonomic to play, usually. One of the first pieces I attempted was the Minute Waltz, because someone showed it to me and I thought it might be possible to pull off. The key signature definitely helped.

Originally Posted by Briguy65
I should perhaps correct my statement regarding seeing lots of people play well starting later. I should say they seem to "master" a song through following tutorials and what not, to at least make a song look decent. I'm not saying they look professional or anything, but they can impress me with that one song.
Yeah exactly. Developing a general solid technique is quite different from being able to play a piece and make it sound decent. I think just playing a piece may be easier as an adult in some cases, because you can sort of command your fingers to do it, lol, and you have the discipline to follow through.
Ranjit, I think most adults can be taught to play with excellent technique especially with beginner pieces. As you start to move up in more difficult pieces that is where technique starts to falter because the natural movements required to play at a high level are not ingrained and unfortunately these skills can’t be taught because our brains have lost their plasticity to make these complex fine motor movements natural.
I'm just saying that I haven't yet seen a single pianist who started late who can play at, say, the level required to get admission at a decent conservatory, which is imo the bare minimum which counts as professional in classical piano. It's not exactly about the difficulty of the pieces or the word "conservatory", but the kind of efficiency and natural ingrained movement which you see in all pianists of that caliber. You can even see it in children, and most professional pianists seen to know exactly what I mean when I ask this question. I personally don't know the extent of what's possible, and I feel like I've been making a lot of progress, so I don't want to jinx myself lol. But I find it hard to think of a single example. Out of the pianists mentioned above and of whose videos I could find and verify, only Dang Thai Son seems to have proper technique. I know people who acquired it starting at 12-13 (Graham Fitch started at 13 for example). Volodos seems to have started at 16 as well, so I suppose for extreme talents, they have pushed that age somewhat.

Anyway I know for certain what I'm talking about here, and have asked some good teachers about it as well. Teachers will not mention it to adult students usually to avoid needless discouragement, which is probably why many here seem to have not heard about it.
To some extent I do agree with what you are saying. None of us given our potential would be a better pianist if we started later in life than earlier in life. There's simply skills you can't learn as an adult to the same level of proficiency as you would if you had learned these skills as a child. Our brains are not infinitely malleable as we age. We (scientists) know this. But that is not to say that some adults can't play even better than some other adults who took lessons all throughout their childhood. That's just genetics and that's why some of those pianists who did make a career as professional pianists though starting later in life were able to succeed. They had a natural facility for piano that Mother Nature instilled in them from birth and is available to them throughout their lives and if developed early they probably would have been astounding pianists. Some of them maybe could have been world class pianists rather than just "great" or "good" pianists- if you understand what I mean. It's all relative. There are examples of a few PW members here I believe who started late in life and then decided to get a piano degree and attended university and succeeded decades into their lives. Never say never. I've often imagined how many people are out there not realizing that they had the potential to be great pianists but were never exposed to the piano at any point in their lives. Yes adult learners can still do great things with the piano. How far can you go? That's the exciting part.

Last edited by Jethro; 10/21/21 08:45 AM.

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👆 👏👏👏

Thank you. Exactly!


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Originally Posted by ranjit
[
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by ranjit
On the other hand, black keys are more ergonomic to play, usually. One of the first pieces I attempted was the Minute Waltz, because someone showed it to me and I thought it might be possible to pull off. The key signature definitely helped.

Originally Posted by Briguy65
I should perhaps correct my statement regarding seeing lots of people play well starting later. I should say they seem to "master" a song through following tutorials and what not, to at least make a song look decent. I'm not saying they look professional or anything, but they can impress me with that one song.
Yeah exactly. Developing a general solid technique is quite different from being able to play a piece and make it sound decent. I think just playing a piece may be easier as an adult in some cases, because you can sort of command your fingers to do it, lol, and you have the discipline to follow through.
Ranjit, I think most adults can be taught to play with excellent technique especially with beginner pieces. As you start to move up in more difficult pieces that is where technique starts to falter because the natural movements required to play at a high level are not ingrained and unfortunately these skills can’t be taught because our brains have lost their plasticity to make these complex fine motor movements natural.
I'm just saying that I haven't yet seen a single pianist who started late who can play at, say, the level required to get admission at a decent conservatory, which is imo the bare minimum which counts as professional in classical piano. It's not exactly about the difficulty of the pieces or the word "conservatory", but the kind of efficiency and natural ingrained movement which you see in all pianists of that caliber. You can even see it in children, and most professional pianists seen to know exactly what I mean when I ask this question. I personally don't know the extent of what's possible, and I feel like I've been making a lot of progress, so I don't want to jinx myself lol. But I find it hard to think of a single example. Out of the pianists mentioned above and of whose videos I could find and verify, only Dang Thai Son seems to have proper technique. I know people who acquired it starting at 12-13 (Graham Fitch started at 13 for example). Volodos seems to have started at 16 as well, so I suppose for extreme talents, they have pushed that age somewhat.

Anyway I know for certain what I'm talking about here, and have asked some good teachers about it as well. Teachers will not mention it to adult students usually to avoid needless discouragement, which is probably why many here seem to have not heard about it.
Ranjit. I just watched you posting of your Fantasie Impromptu in the adult recital. Wow! Very impressive for mostly a self learner (for the most part) such as yourself. The one thing I have to say and this includes the OP. The adult pianists I believe who has shown me the most progress in their playing are those who were willing to think outside the box and not just following the subscribed "formula". Very nice playing. I think I have to attempt the piece myself looks like a lot of fun. I'm just trying to knock out one of his Nocturnes first. Hehe. Hey we're not concert pianists but as I've always said I do agree with your approach to the piano as an adult learner. You are progressing very fast and very nicely. You need to PM me your secrets!


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Originally Posted by ebonyk
👆 👏👏👏

Thank you. Exactly!
and thank you! But I think Ranjit has some good points as well.


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Originally Posted by Jethro
Ranjit. I just watched you posting of your Fantasie Impromptu in the adult recital.
I can't seem to find recital #63 anywhere, where on the boards are they posted?


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Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by ranjit
[
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by Briguy65
I should perhaps correct my statement regarding seeing lots of people play well starting later. I should say they seem to "master" a song through following tutorials and what not, to at least make a song look decent. I'm not saying they look professional or anything, but they can impress me with that one song.
Yeah exactly. Developing a general solid technique is quite different from being able to play a piece and make it sound decent. I think just playing a piece may be easier as an adult in some cases, because you can sort of command your fingers to do it, lol, and you have the discipline to follow through.
Ranjit, I think most adults can be taught to play with excellent technique especially with beginner pieces. As you start to move up in more difficult pieces that is where technique starts to falter because the natural movements required to play at a high level are not ingrained and unfortunately these skills can’t be taught because our brains have lost their plasticity to make these complex fine motor movements natural.
I'm just saying that I haven't yet seen a single pianist who started late who can play at, say, the level required to get admission at a decent conservatory, which is imo the bare minimum which counts as professional in classical piano. It's not exactly about the difficulty of the pieces or the word "conservatory", but the kind of efficiency and natural ingrained movement which you see in all pianists of that caliber. You can even see it in children, and most professional pianists seen to know exactly what I mean when I ask this question. I personally don't know the extent of what's possible, and I feel like I've been making a lot of progress, so I don't want to jinx myself lol. But I find it hard to think of a single example. Out of the pianists mentioned above and of whose videos I could find and verify, only Dang Thai Son seems to have proper technique. I know people who acquired it starting at 12-13 (Graham Fitch started at 13 for example). Volodos seems to have started at 16 as well, so I suppose for extreme talents, they have pushed that age somewhat.

Anyway I know for certain what I'm talking about here, and have asked some good teachers about it as well. Teachers will not mention it to adult students usually to avoid needless discouragement, which is probably why many here seem to have not heard about it.
To some extent I do agree with what you are saying. None of us given our potential would be a better pianist if we started later in life than earlier in life. There's simply skills you can't learn as an adult to the same level of proficiency as you would if you had learned these skills as a child. Our brains are not infinitely malleable as we age. We (scientists) know this. But that is not to say that some adults can't play even better than some other adults who took lessons all throughout their childhood. That's just genetics and that's why some of those pianists who did make a career as professional pianists though starting later in life were able to succeed. They had a natural facility for piano that Mother Nature instilled in them from birth and is available to them throughout their lives and if developed early they probably would have been astounding pianists. Some of them maybe could have been world class pianists rather than just "great" or "good" pianists- if you understand what I mean. It's all relative. There are examples of a few PW members here I believe who started late in life and then decided to get a piano degree and attended university and succeeded decades into their lives. Never say never. I've often imagined how many people are out there not realizing that they had the potential to be great pianists but were never exposed to the piano at any point in their lives. Yes adult learners can still do great things with the piano. How far can you go? That's the exciting part.



I know I have this 100%, I remember when I was younger I would sometimes play at my grandparents house their piano. And I was able to pick out melodies such as Bolero of Fire from OOT by ear. I wish I pursued music more when I was younger, but I think I was much more passionate about video games... If I even just took some lessons, I would've been fine...

There is also just other little random things, I have always been strong at learning languages. I never tried in HS or did homework ever really, but I'd get A's/B's in my spanish classes, and have always considered memory to be naturally a stronger suit. So I think these skills help with music...

I played video games as well that I'd argue are more mechanically/technically demanding than piano, and I was always top 0.5% in mechanical skill in those games. My issues with piano I don't think will amount to technique, I don't think I will be able to do [censored] like Liszt and Hoffmann would be able to do, I will never be able to sightread chopin etudes, memorize a piece after listening once, have this insane rep, but I think I'll definitely be able to play stuff like RPC2, rach piano sonatas, scriabin etudes, etc. It's just going to take time.

My thought process is any human of any age, if they complete all of WTC 1 and 32 Beethoven Sonatas. They should be able to play anything, and that is what I'm going to work towards...

If I listen to a piece a few times that I really like I can play it in my head, or when I listen to it remember basically every note, an example is I remember listening to Beethoven 3rd movement of Emperor Concerto and after only two listens I can play it in my head/hum along perfectly to song)


In terms of progress on technique, I can post an updated playing of scales and stuff, and I think I can honestly play C major scales at nearly 160 BPM now. I've realized I just have to relax, but, that isn't 100% correct. You need tension and relaxation, and since I'm a noob, it's hard to figure out the proper balance, but I'm getting there... I honestly might post an updated video on this thread...

More bonus stuff is, I have some family members who are famous opera singers, and my brother is a great musician. He plays every instrument, he is best at guitar though... Then, I just can tell I have some affinity, because whenever I talk to the kids who are like Piano majors at my college, they always are impressed by me or are awestruck by my creativity (when I don't really think I'm super creative).. I also LOVE practicing scales, I read from a book recently that Liszt when he was a noob LOVED practicing scales and exercises, and that's one of my favorite things. Sightreading is much more annoying because it requires more focus, but that's going to be a skill I'll work on.

Another thing is, I only listen to Cortot, Horowitz, Sofronitsky, and lots of old masters recordings. I do listen to some modern players, but there is nobody who is as poetic and strikes the same nerves for me. I don't know if this makes me special, but, most pianists who I know who study it seriously mostly only listen to surface level stuff.


This evidence, and also stuff my teachers who I'd say are better than nearly anyone on this forum (one of them for sure, the other one there may be some competition), also see great potential in me. A master teacher recommended I enroll in music school "when I'm playing beautifully in two years", so I may not be a god like Hoffman, Busoni, Horowitz, but, I know I will be a solid pianist, I think it's possible I can maybe get to a level similar to a Cortot, and I would be very happy with that, and if I can keep learning hopefully I can teach people to play beautifully like the old masters did...

I'm going to finish my Biochem degree, and then put my all into music, and see where it goes...


My gods are: Cortot, Horowitz, and Sofronitsky,

Started piano during COVID, hopefully I can play Rachmaninoff, Rubinstein, and Scriabin compositions one day...
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Good luck Pablo!


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Also quick update one what I'm going to do...

I'm going to ask my teacher still about his thoughts on revolutionary, I remember asking him if I could play the hobby horseman piece by tchaikvosky, and he basically said yeah because I can play the first few measures, I'd just have to have the patience to learn the whole piece...

For revolutionary, I'm almost at the point where I can play the scale, and the chords on the right hand is pretty free.

But, I'm thinking of going to music school long term...

So, IDRGAF about the internet [censored], it would obviously help my career a bit, but I care mostly about dedicating myself to playing this art at the highest ability I can...

So, I think I'm going to just keep focusing on method book, complete the Leila Fletcher books completely, or a good bit, then go to the Nikolaev method book, and then maybe I'll do some faber thing for fun or whatever...

Then work my way up to learn Bach WTC, and Beethoven.. Simple...


My gods are: Cortot, Horowitz, and Sofronitsky,

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Just trying to keep up:
No longer aiming to be an internet phenom
Preparing to speak with teacher about repertoire
Considering further study of piano in music school
Confidence remains strong.

Am I in the ballpark of following this thread?


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Originally Posted by Jethro
Ranjit. I just watched you posting of your Fantasie Impromptu in the adult recital. Wow! Very impressive for mostly a self learner (for the most part) such as yourself. The one thing I have to say and this includes the OP. The adult pianists I believe who has shown me the most progress in their playing are those who were willing to think outside the box and not just following the subscribed "formula". Very nice playing. I think I have to attempt the piece myself looks like a lot of fun. I'm just trying to knock out one of his Nocturnes first. Hehe. Hey we're not concert pianists but as I've always said I do agree with your approach to the piano as an adult learner. You are progressing very fast and very nicely. You need to PM me your secrets!
I sent you a PM.

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