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#3163002 10/10/21 02:43 AM
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I don't practice the melodic and natural scales just the harmonic minor scales. Do you practice all of them? I heard also that there are some special hungarian scales as well.
In the second part of the Lebert-Faisst-Liszt Piano school I found that all three was practiced and also mixed for example the left hand playes harmonic and the right melodic. It was maybe an earlier edition, because that part I couldn't find on imslp.org.

Last edited by mandan; 10/10/21 02:51 AM.
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mandan #3163003 10/10/21 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mandan
I don't practice the melodic and natural scales just the harmonic minor scales. Do you practice all of them. I heard also that there are some special hungarian scales as well.

For a long time, I practised all of them, natural, melodic and harmonic. But then I found out that natural scales are rarely used in music, so what is the point. Now I practise melodic and harmonic. cool

Originally Posted by mandan
also mixed for example the left hand playes harmonic and the right melodic

Personally, I rather spend my precious practice time on pieces than on these kind of complicated exercises.


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Animisha #3163005 10/10/21 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Personally, I rather spend my precious practice time on pieces than on these kind of complicated exercises.

I completely agree.

mandan #3163006 10/10/21 03:16 AM
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Thank you for your answer.

I am playing always just one piece at the moment Beethoven sonata op. 14 no. 2. But the scales, octaves, arpeggios, trills, chromatic I have to play always at lessons.

In melodic scales the ascending and descending scale is not the same, so when played in contrary motion the two scales are not the same. In the school the scales are starting from different notes as well.

mandan #3163009 10/10/21 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mandan
But the scales, octaves, arpeggios, trills, chromatic I have to play always at lessons. In the school the scales are starting from different notes as well.

Do you have group lessons in the school? Or private lessons?


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
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mandan #3163015 10/10/21 04:02 AM
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There is an almost infinite number of possible combinations in terms of exercices. Contrary motion starting on a different note, different rythm in each hand, mixing scale for one hand and arpeggios in the other (and in contrary motion), adding different rythms, adding different dynamics, ....

Diatonic Scales in thirds, sixth, fourth, chromatic scales, minor thirds chromatic scales, ....

There are a number of other differents scales, lydian, octatonic, whole note, .....

So you could be spending hours everyday just doing that. The question is just what is your level and how much time you have every day. Then it is a matter of priority. Scales are fine but there are other areas worth practicising. So thats why if you are in a school, you must follow the guidelines of the school and trust that they know what they are doing. There is a progression in the technical demands.

That said, it is important to practice the melodic scale, it is frequently used. Once you know the harmonic and melodic, doing the natural is not very difficult.

mandan #3163017 10/10/21 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mandan
Beethoven sonata op. 14 no. 2.
At this level you can already think of playing scales in all keys in parallel and contrary motion.

Originally Posted by mandan
In melodic scales the ascending and descending scale is not the same, so when played in contrary motion the two scales are not the same. In the school the scales are starting from different notes as well.
I don't practice the melodic minor in contrary motion but I do practice the harmonic minor in contrary motion. I also practice the "Russian" scale pattern, which mixes parallel and contrary motion. By "starting from different notes" do you mean all the different tonalities or starting on a scale degree other than the first? I myself practice all scales with the left and right separated by a 3rd, 6th, or 10th and not only on the octave.

Do you practice double thirds scales too? I started practicing them recently but the fingering is tricky.

Animisha #3163025 10/10/21 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by mandan
I don't practice the melodic and natural scales just the harmonic minor scales. Do you practice all of them. I heard also that there are some special hungarian scales as well.

For a long time, I practised all of them, natural, melodic and harmonic. But then I found out that natural scales are rarely used in music, so what is the point. Now I practise melodic and harmonic. cool

Originally Posted by mandan
also mixed for example the left hand playes harmonic and the right melodic

Personally, I rather spend my precious practice time on pieces than on these kind of complicated exercises.

Well, melodic minor scales have the natural minor as one half of the pattern, usually descending!

I remember being thoroughly confused when I first had to learn the melodic form, having only done the harmonic form in many scales. Had I been introduced to the natural minor earlier, and properly understood that it just involves starting the major scale on the sixth degree, (i.e. Aeolien mode) it would have all made sense.

To me, a logical learning order would be:
Understand and be able to play the natural minor first in C maj/A nat min, because the relationship is beautifully clear on the keyboard.
Then get the hang of it fluently in a couple of common keys for starters.
Then your harmonic scale is simply sharpen the 7th note both ascending and descending.
Then for the melodic sharpen 6th and 7th going up and play the natural scale coming down.

Even in the most 'classical' music all three forms often are present in the same piece, mixed up in various ways eg with the melodic turned around. The natural scale is very prevalent in much folk or modally based music. So it certainly makes sense to practice all three at least in relation to the piece you're learning.

mandan #3163027 10/10/21 05:33 AM
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My instructor told me to learn harmonic first

Animisha #3163028 10/10/21 05:35 AM
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Thank you very much for your advices.

Originally Posted by Animisha
Do you have group lessons in the school? Or private lessons?
I am having private lesson from a private teacher since 1996. My first teacher I learn 1996-2001, from my second from 2002 on. We recorded already the first movement of the sonata in July, now we are working on the 2nd variation movement and just started the third as well.


Originally Posted by Sidokar
So thats why if you are in a school, you must follow the guidelines of the school and trust that they know what they are doing. There is a progression in the technical demands.?
I am not at a school, I am at a private teacher and she didn't thought me other kind of scales just the major and the harmonic minor.

Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Do you practice double thirds scales too? I started practicing them recently but the fingering is tricky.
We started to practice because of the first movement of the sonata the scale of the thirds in pairs, it is not an ordinary scale, because the second third I repeat at the next pair. But we practice chords and dominant septim chords as well. The legato playing in this sonata is not so easy, in the second variation I have to change fingers on the keys very fast in the first variation.

We learn harmony progression, I have to write the dictation, I have to sing short reading exercises, or Bach chorals at the lesson as well.

mandan #3163032 10/10/21 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mandan
I am not at a school, I am at a private teacher and she didn't thought me other kind of scales just the major and the harmonic minor.

We learn harmony progression, I have to write the dictation, I have to sing short reading exercises, or Bach chorals at the lesson as well.
It seems to me that your teacher is teaching you well, and you should stick to what she asks you to learn.

If you ask around, you'll hear all sorts of contrary advice telling you that you should learn this or that, but with classical piano, what you need to develop are technical & musical skills, develop good aural skills, and learn a bit of theory that enables you to understand the music. There is no need to go overboard with anything else.

For instance, there are pieces (which are in my performing rep) where you have to play one-handed scales in fourths and even seconds. I've never heard of any teacher asking students to learn those scales, unless (of course) if you're actually playing pieces that contain them - in which case, you just learn and practise them, just for those pieces.

Incidentally, I never had to learn to play melodic or natural minor scales when I was a student and doing piano exams, but I could play them if I needed to (without needing to practise) because I knew what they were.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
bennevis #3163045 10/10/21 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
For instance, there are pieces (which are in my performing rep) where you have to play one-handed scales in fourths and even seconds. I've never heard of any teacher asking students to learn those scales, unless (of course) if you're actually playing pieces that contain them - in which case, you just learn and practise them, just for those pieces.
I know of only one piece that has one handed scales in seconds (Gaspard de la nuit) so for that one it would indeed make sense to practice only what the specific piece asks for, but scales in thirds are very common and I think it's useful to practice them separately.

Qazsedcft #3163051 10/10/21 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
scales in thirds are very common and I think it's useful to practice them separately.
There aren't actually that many pieces that require complete scales in thirds (I assume you mean one-handed thirds) unless they are studies like Chopin's Op.25/6, but there are many that require thirds in various guises, like in trills or trill-like sections, or most commonly, just a three-note 'scale'. In fact, some of those pieces would be very easy if it weren't for those thirds, like Schubert's D780/3.

Many of the commonly-performed concert pieces that require complete scales (an octave or more) in one-handed thirds in fact use chromatic scales in thirds, which require different technique & fingerings, e.g. Grieg's Piano Concerto.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
bennevis #3163060 10/10/21 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
scales in thirds are very common and I think it's useful to practice them separately.
There aren't actually that many pieces that require complete scales in thirds (I assume you mean one-handed thirds) unless they are studies like Chopin's Op.25/6, but there are many that require thirds in various guises, like in trills or trill-like sections, or most commonly, just a three-note 'scale'. In fact, some of those pieces would be very easy if it weren't for those thirds, like Schubert's D780/3.
So practicing scales in thirds isn't useful for those sections in thirds?

Qazsedcft #3163071 10/10/21 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
So practicing scales in thirds isn't useful for those sections in thirds?
I think practicing three-note 'scales' and doing exercises with them using just five notes (i.e. 1/3-2/4-3/5-2/4-1/3 and repeat, and also 1/3-2/4-1/3-2/4 and 3/5-2/4-3/5-2/4) are more useful to develop the evenness required for many pieces.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
mandan #3163081 10/10/21 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mandan
But the scales, octaves, arpeggios, trills, chromatic I have to play always at lessons.

Originally Posted by Animisha
Do you have group lessons in the school? Or private lessons?
Originally Posted by mandan
I am having private lesson from a private teacher since 1996. My first teacher I learn 1996-2001, from my second from 2002 on.

I asked you, because personally, I would think it would be rather a waste of precious lesson time to always play scales, octaves, arpeggios, trills, chromatic during the lesson. It is good to play them as part of your regular practice at home, but unless there is something specific you need to work on, I would ask my teacher to spend this time on working with pieces instead.


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dorfmouse #3163311 10/11/21 03:43 AM
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Just this: smile
Originally Posted by dorfmouse
Well, melodic minor scales have the natural minor as one half of the pattern, usually descending!

When I studied violin, we did the harmonic and melodic minor, and the melodic when melodic on the way up, and natural on the way down (which is probably why the natural wasn't in there separately). I just did it that way, because that's what I was supposed to do, though it seemed odd. Years later my present teacher cleared up the story of this "melodic minor" scale ------- In actual music, a melodic minor can end up going down the same way it goes up. There's a general pattern that it often goes down as natural in older music, and goes down the same way in newer music, but even that is not set in stone. The final decider has to do with what chords are chosen, and this has to do with what the composer wants the music to say.

I have also discovered that in jazz there is a general pattern for modes, where there is a set of modes built on major scales (the ones we know), and a set built on the "jazz minor", which is the melodic minor going the same way up and down. (as a fun fact)

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Some very interesting facts and information. Harmonic minor is definitely a must in terms of playing; melodic is definitely worth understanding in theory and play if it helps on a piece. I like that a few had mentioned about the thirds..that it is best to tackle for a piece of music at hand. This is the fundamental thought I have: will it enhance my playing, particularly the piece I am tackling? Rather than learning for sake of it and wondering what the heck why I am learning it.

No expert here..but a good thread of information.


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Originally Posted by Pianoperformance
... This is the fundamental thought I have: will it enhance my playing, particularly the piece I am tackling? Rather than learning for sake of it and wondering what the heck why I am learning it.

..

No, scales are way over blown. Great for helping you understand theory. Not great for enhancing your playing.

But it's been imbedded in how we've been taught for centuries. It's like, we've always done it that way, so it must be right.

Greener #3163559 10/12/21 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Greener
Originally Posted by Pianoperformance
... This is the fundamental thought I have: will it enhance my playing, particularly the piece I am tackling? Rather than learning for sake of it and wondering what the heck why I am learning it.

..

No, scales are way over blown. Great for helping you understand theory. Not great for enhancing your playing.

But it's been imbedded in how we've been taught for centuries. It's like, we've always done it that way, so it must be right.


I do think we need to understand why things were created and taught that way: and I agree there is a degree of mindlessness to follow the old trodden path IF our journey isn’t the same as what it was intended for. I wouldn’t follow a yellow sponge cake recipe if I wanted to make sourdough bread. I always ask my teacher; WHY is this helpful/useful. I like to understand why I am spending time on something. Time is valuable commodity for me..


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