2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
37 members (80k, cauldron, Alex C, Burkey, BobTB, Burkhard, Animisha, brennbaer, 7 invisible), 645 guests, and 216 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 1,189
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 1,189
Originally Posted by Dore
Thanks Vlad-

Does the half pedal velocity minimum setting have a boundary, or is it zero?
Does the half pedal velocity maximum setting have a boundary, or is it 127?

Most importantly, do you know what the default is?

Whatever you want between 0-127. I don't remember what defaults are.

Last edited by VladK; 09/29/21 09:24 PM.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
Vlad,
Adult beginner
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 216
D
Dore Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 216
Funny how 0-127 wouldn't be a half-pedal, more of a continuous pedal.

Thanks for the info!


1928 Mason & Hamlin Model A
You can play it as a free VI along with my Fazioli F308 library HERE
Buy me a coffee if you like it.
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,883
G
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 6,883
Could a truly continuous (all values between 1-127) result in MIDI timing delays/overload? I wonder if a lot of pianos only send discrete values for pedal as a way of optimizing the MIDI stream.


Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro
Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV-10
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 216
D
Dore Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 216
I'm not sure, but that is exactly why I'm going to make my own arduino controller. Toward the end of the vid that I posted, the guy mentioned that he had to adjust the code so that data send frequency was lower. I want to be able to control that with the hardware.

it's also why I think it would be easier to just lookup the current CC64 on finger release and issue a different decay, ignoring all other data

Last edited by Dore; 09/29/21 09:52 PM.

1928 Mason & Hamlin Model A
You can play it as a free VI along with my Fazioli F308 library HERE
Buy me a coffee if you like it.
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,206
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,206
Maybe take a look at the NI forums for some ideas of how developers deal with this in KSP. Inevitably you will bump into a EvilDragon, a developer who works with several VI makers, including NI; he shares some inside information and tips for pedal scripting, but also noted,
Quote
Yeah for some things they are just not possible with sample libraries, and Pianoteq would be your next best bet. ESPECIALLY if you're a pro pianist.
https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/adjusting-sustain-pedal-for-halfpedal.377245/

https://www.native-instruments.com/...ff-sustain-pedal-in-kontake-help.316376/

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,554
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,554
Originally Posted by newer player
Maybe take a look at the NI forums for some ideas of how developers deal with this in KSP. Inevitably you will bump into a EvilDragon, a developer who works with several VI makers, including NI; he shares some inside information and tips for pedal scripting, but also noted,
Quote
Yeah for some things they are just not possible with sample libraries, and Pianoteq would be your next best bet. ESPECIALLY if you're a pro pianist.
https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/adjusting-sustain-pedal-for-halfpedal.377245/

https://www.native-instruments.com/...ff-sustain-pedal-in-kontake-help.316376/

It's obvious, that with recording sample players like Kontakt, you cannot simulate a piano, you can only simulate a recording, by mixing recording samples together and hope that the result sounds somewhat believable.

That doesn't stop people from trying as hard as they can on their search of the digital piano holy grail.


Yamaha P-515
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 647
_
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
_
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 647
Originally Posted by Dore

Thanks. Those are helpful. But seeing as I already have Arduinos lying around doing nothing, and I can hack the arduino code to optimize it as I like, and its also another teaching opportunity to get my kids to help with their coding/hardware, I'm choosing the DIY avenue. Definitely if I hit a big roadblock, I'll probably purchase one of those.

I don't post that often, but if you've seen the work that I've done, you'll notice that I take a real DIY approach to everything. I have a goal to create great piano sample libraries investing mostly time rather than money. I could invest more money, but I get the fulfillment out of doing it myself. More than half of my microphones are hand built, and I built them especially for sampling pianos. I could buy more commercial libraries, but I want to build it myself. I want to see what I can achieve with almost nothing.

In fact I was curious if there was sth wrong with these. I appreciate your DIY spirit. Of course sometimes there's the issue what to spend time on. And sometimes packaged products happen not to do what you want them to and often can't be fixed, unlike if you DIY.

Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 1,189
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 1,189
Originally Posted by Dore
Most importantly, do you know what the default is?

Defaults are:
VI Labs - default 54 min, 74 max, range 2-126
Synthogy - default 45 min, 55 max, range 0-127
VSL Synchron - default 26 min, 102 max, range 0-127


Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
Vlad,
Adult beginner
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 533
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 533
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Could a truly continuous (all values between 1-127) result in MIDI timing delays/overload? I wonder if a lot of pianos only send discrete values for pedal as a way of optimizing the MIDI stream.

There would be no need to continuously send the value, if it doesn’t change.

And typically in these Type of things you would build a little dead zone so small movements wouldn’t trigger a new message.

But if it is diy you could experiment


FP-90x, PX-330
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 647
_
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
_
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 647
Originally Posted by Dore
I don't post that often, but if you've seen the work that I've done, you'll notice that I take a real DIY approach to everything. I have a goal to create great piano sample libraries investing mostly time rather than money. I could invest more money, but I get the fulfillment out of doing it myself. More than half of my microphones are hand built, and I built them especially for sampling pianos. I could buy more commercial libraries, but I want to build it myself. I want to see what I can achieve with almost nothing.

OT: How do you DIY microphones? Link?

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 216
D
Dore Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 216
I've built multiple, like this one

https://www.instructables.com/True-Condenser-OPA-Mics/

I also mount multiple capsules within one mic body, making XY arrays . Jules has a few options that I have made variations on. In fact in the future, I'll use these mics and samples to allow the user to change the mic pattern that I place inside the piano, which changes the sound considerably.


1928 Mason & Hamlin Model A
You can play it as a free VI along with my Fazioli F308 library HERE
Buy me a coffee if you like it.
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 26
X
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
X
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 26
Logging data from an A88(II) with RPU-3 pedal:

It sends all values from 0 (fully up) to 127 (fully down) for all 3 pedals, sending changed values at a maximum rate of 100Hz. So if you press a pedal down really fast you don't get all the values from 0-127, you just get a new value every 10ms.

Using 'MIDI Loupe' on Mac:

02:56:02:517: Control message: 64, 13
02:56:02:527: Control message: 64, 37
02:56:02:537: Control message: 64, 60
02:56:02:547: Control message: 64, 84
02:56:02:557: Control message: 64, 107
02:56:02:567: Control message: 64, 127

Continual manipulation even of all three pedals at this data rate would consume less than a third of the bandwidth of a standard serial MIDI connection. (Though this data was collected from the A88 USB MIDI connection, not the 5 pin serial).

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 216
D
Dore Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 216
Originally Posted by xooorx
Logging data from an A88(II) with RPU-3 pedal:

It sends all values from 0 (fully up) to 127 (fully down) for all 3 pedals, sending changed values at a maximum rate of 100Hz. So if you press a pedal down really fast you don't get all the values from 0-127, you just get a new value every 10ms.

Using 'MIDI Loupe' on Mac:

02:56:02:517: Control message: 64, 13
02:56:02:527: Control message: 64, 37
02:56:02:537: Control message: 64, 60
02:56:02:547: Control message: 64, 84
02:56:02:557: Control message: 64, 107
02:56:02:567: Control message: 64, 127

Continual manipulation even of all three pedals at this data rate would consume less than a third of the bandwidth of a standard serial MIDI connection. (Though this data was collected from the A88 USB MIDI connection, not the 5 pin serial).

Thanks! I love crowd sourcing information


1928 Mason & Hamlin Model A
You can play it as a free VI along with my Fazioli F308 library HERE
Buy me a coffee if you like it.
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 1,285
H
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
H
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 1,285
Hello,

Originally Posted by Dore
Originally Posted by xooorx
Logging data from an A88(II) with RPU-3 pedal:

It sends all values from 0 (fully up) to 127 (fully down).

Thanks! I love crowd sourcing information

If it is useful for you to know: I tested the Roland DP-10 (in continuous mode) and Kawai F-10H both connected through an Audiofront MIDIExpression (pedal to USB MIDI) interface. For both pedals, I got a very neat 0--127 pedal position range as well.

Audiofront's control software lets you choose the update frequency (the number of updated-value MIDI messages per unit of time).

My brother uses the DP-10 pedal connected directly to his Akai Professional MPK261 MIDI controller and gets the neat 0--127 as well.

Cheers and happy pedaling,

HZ

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 336
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 336
Dore,

Since you belong to the DIY people and want to do something in the piano pedal area, may I suggest to you to enhance the common DP pedal concept as follows.

Damper pedals in real acoustics are essentially based on the =force= (which can be measured in kg or N), not on the =velocity= of the pedal motion. Such a pedal typically works as follows:

A) It lifts a mechanical part of the piano action, which contains about 60 dampers. (The upper register strings typically are not damped);

B): After that, using some additional force, it presses all the dampers onto the strings in order to damper them.

The first force (lifting the dampers) is a constant force of weight lifting. Nevertheless, for mimicking it in the DP pedal, a light spring can be applied, up to the dampers-strings contact position.

The second force (pressing the dampers) should be much stronger, and it should allow a better control by the pianist. For mimicking it in a DP pedal, from the start of the (B) position, a stronger spring can be applied. Its pressure can be measured using a dynamometer. I believe there exist inexpensive arduino dynamometers.

The idea is to mechanically implement phases (A) and (B) and, using the arduino, send to the DAW some measure (in kg or N, normalized to values 0-127) of pressing the second (stronger) spring.

This can be easily implemented as follows. Take some common DP pedal and do not apply its MIDI. Without disassembling it, simply insert some stronger string (or even a rubber ball) and a dynamometer between the metal part of the pedal and its bottom part, leaving some free (unmeasured) motion of the pedal before it touches the dynamometer. Then send the value of the dynamometer into the DAW.

I apologize if anybody did this before (I do not have such info). For me as a pianist, this would look less amateuristic than applying the velocity of the DP pedal motion for controlling the sustain of piano strings.

Last edited by Andrew_G; 10/01/21 04:54 AM.
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,439
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,439
In your part (A) ... when pressing the pedal, the dampers are lifted. They are NOT pressed onto the strings. Rather, they are lifted AWAY from the strings.

Consequently your part (B) vanishes.

Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 3,246
C
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 3,246
Digital piano pedals do not work based on velocity. Their position is measured instead.

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 336
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 336
You are right MacMacMac, thank you: (B) should be measured =before= the stage (A) occurs.
Anyway, the dynamometer measure seems to better represent how the pianist controls the strings sustain by the foot pedal, and the sustain pedal of real acoustics certainly has 2 distinct stages: (B) sensitive, (A) non-sensitive.
My apology for the mistake...

Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 613
V
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
V
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 613
Andrew_G: in my opinion, you are incorrect on several accounts...

Firstly, as Mac noted, there is simply no way to "press further" the damper onto the strings. That could be an interesting 4th pedal for muffled notes using a separate set of dampers, but Mr Cristofori did not think of that; maybe S&Sons is receptive to the idea.

Secondly, the MIDI value of the pedal does not correspond to the velocity but to the position of the pedal (ie, distance of the damper to the strings). To calculate velocity, the sound engine needs to have a continuous pedal sending midi messages at fixed frequency. I doubt that piano engine takes this into account (maybe it should), although many calculate key return speed which is the same as the drop speed of the key damper (if the pedal is not pressed down, of course).

Thirdly, on the way down dampers act by gravity and cannot go faster than what is caused by its own weight. The pianist (Horowitz and his cousins) may be able to reduce speed of descent, but cannot accelerate it by any means.

Fourth, as far as I understand, no springs are actually required in acoustic piano pedals, and they exist simply to add resistance and improve control of pedalling. So, the increasing weightness to which you call stage A and B (???) is simply an effect of gravity cause by the continuous raising of the entire damping mechanism.

Last edited by vagfilm; 10/01/21 06:53 AM.
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,439
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,439
There is no stage B. You press the pedal and the dampers rise. You release the pedal and the dampers fall.
The applied pedal force need only overcome the weight of the damper mechanism (and of the spring under the pedal, if any).
Originally Posted by Andrew_G
You are right , thank you: (B) should be measured =before= the stage (A) occurs.
Anyway, the dynamometer measure seems to better represent how the pianist controls the strings sustain by the foot pedal, and the sustain pedal of real acoustics certainly has 2 distinct stages: (B) sensitive, (A) non-sensitive.
My apology for the mistake...

Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
Piano Buyer - Read the Articles, Explore the website
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Haessler
by PianistEsq - 07/06/22 12:05 AM
Garritan CFX sustain problem
by mwf - 07/05/22 11:29 PM
First digital piano for my almost 6 year-old son.
by New2music - 07/05/22 10:54 PM
What Level is this Arrangement?
by showard - 07/05/22 09:36 PM
which piano? or other options?
by NJ_Piano_Mom - 07/05/22 08:27 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
FREE June Newsletter is Here!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
-------------------
Music Store Going Out of Business Sale!
---------------------
Mr. PianoWorld's Original Composition
---------------------
Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics213,823
Posts3,205,757
Members105,732
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5