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Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
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Originally Posted by dogperson
[quote=kre


Estonia factory is close, but they have awful reputation here, resale value would be very bad. How they are so highly valued in USA must be the marketing achievement of all times in piano industry?

Estonia is highly valued in the US because pianists that buy them find them to be responsive, reliable with good tone. Excellent quality. In other words, not marketing but a good reputation from pleased pianists who have purchased them.[/quote]
The new Estonia is an amazing instrument.If I lived near the factory I would try one of these out.The prices in the US really give good value for a wonderful performance grade piano!




My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love.In other words a hymn.That is all, but that is enough.Life goes on, despite pain and fear.Music is beautiful,life is beautiful.


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Woah......couldn't get past how out of tune the Estonia is in that video. The Kawai is in better tune but is quite percussive at the attack. A bit of basic voicing would at least improve that some.


Keith D Kerman
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Originally Posted by kre
I would love to try European "independents" (not sure what that even means), but unfortunately in my corner of Europe they are just not available to try. My friend has a wonderful Steingraeber he handpicked from their Berlin factory. Sadly flying out to try them out, buying and shipping is not realistic to me. Way too much hassle.


Estonia factory is close, but they have awful reputation here, resale value would be very bad. How they are so highly valued in USA must be the marketing achievement of all times in piano industry?

Estonia has only built their reputation over the past 15 -20 years as a quality instrument and over the past 10 years as a more elite piano. FWIW, we regularly have Russian immigrants who are great pianists visit PianoCraft and their reaction to seeing Estonias is always "BLECH!" The Estonia pianos they remember from the former Soviet Union were terrible and even the Petrofs at that time were better ( not saying much )
And then I make them play them. Their reaction to playing them is always shock and amazement and disbelief at how really terrific they are now. Sometimes they don't believe it is really an Estonia and they think we have put an Estonia decal on a piano from Germany.

Estonias are competitive ( especially with meticulous and insightful prep ) with their significantly more expensive peers from Germany. I have no idea what resale would be for a current Estonia piano in Europe, but initially you will be saving tens of thousands over its competitors that you wont have to recoup in resale.

So, as usual, if you try one and love it, it is worth very serious consideration and that their reputation hasn't yet caught up with their quality in Europe just means a better deal. Nothing wrong with that!


Keith D Kerman
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It seems like you are narrowing down your choices and perhaps getting close to a decision? However, it also seems to me like you are not fully convinced by your top contenders. If you’re still entertaining options, I would at least consider taking a look at Estonia pianos. From your posts, it seems like a trip to Tallinn would be doable for you. I think you might be really pleasantly surprised by their pianos. From everything I’ve read, the current Estonia pianos are very far removed from their soviet era forbears. The instruments made today are truly beautiful. I am a very happy owner of an Estonia L210. As others have noted, I think the reason they’re popular among some here in the US is that they are beautiful pianos that fill a particular niche in the US market. If you like their tone, they are priced considerably better than many other high end pianos. My impression is that one of the reasons for this is precisely because the company is NOT devoting a large amount of money to a marketing budget. The pianos sell themselves.
My guess is that in Europe, there is a lasting stigma associated with the company’s Soviet years, and there is also greater availability of other European pianos, at better prices than available in the U.S.

You may still prefer the Shigeru Kawai or the preowned Steinway C. Or you may feel that whatever price you would pay for an Estonia, the resale factor in your area overwhelmingly argues against the purchase. But as Keith mentioned, you will be dollars ahead when you buy the piano. And I, for one, don’t intend to part with my piano anytime soon, which renders resale concerns moot.

If it’s not too much of a trip to make, I think it would be worth your time to go and play a few of these pianos. I hear Tallinn is a gorgeous city, too.

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Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
Woah......couldn't get past how out of tune the Estonia is in that video. The Kawai is in better tune but is quite percussive at the attack. A bit of basic voicing would at least improve that some.
Perhaps Dr Laul did not realise the piano was that out of tune before the recording took place or perhaps it's the recording?
It was recorded at the Estonian factory.

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Originally Posted by tre corda
Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
Woah......couldn't get past how out of tune the Estonia is in that video. The Kawai is in better tune but is quite percussive at the attack. A bit of basic voicing would at least improve that some.
Perhaps Dr Laul did not realise the piano was that out of tune before the recording took place or perhaps it's the recording?
It was recorded at the Estonian factory.

That piano is in excellent tune. I was referring to the Estonia in Withindale's post which is being compared with a Kawai.


Keith D Kerman
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New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
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check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
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Oh I am sorry! Yes of course the Shigeru is being compared to an Estonia in Withindale's video! You had me worried..


My piano's voice is my voice to God and the great unknown universe, and to those I love.In other words a hymn.That is all, but that is enough.Life goes on, despite pain and fear.Music is beautiful,life is beautiful.


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Originally Posted by Sgisela
It seems like you are narrowing down your choices and perhaps getting close to a decision? However, it also seems to me like you are not fully convinced by your top contenders.

Well there has been development recently. The owner of the S&S C has pretty much disappeared (!) and the dealer just removed the instrument from their for-sale listing. They send me an apologetic message that this is beyond their control and they just cannot sell it without any responses from owner.

Same dealer would be extremely interested in selling me a new S7X, and might be willing to ship one from Hamburg here just for me to try out, or pay my costs for travelling to Hamburg showroom in case I commit to buy. (I respect the offer, but this puts enormous pressure for me to buy it at the end. I don't like bothering the dealer for uncertain deal.)

Went to play SK7 for couple of hours yesterday and still loved it. Shigeru dealer is more than happy to take my C3 as trade in, and would give me 2000 euros less for it than what I paid for it 11 years ago new. (Best 2000 euros ever spent). There seems to be a lot of demand for used instruments.

Both dealers are constantly talking about high demand, low supply (6 months wait for new Shigerus) and prices going up. Heard that Yamaha published new grand price list mid-year, first time ever.

So Steinway being out (for a while, I expect it to be for sale at some point again), S7X maybe in, SK7 being ready for delivery immediately, it is complicated.

Last edited by kre; 09/28/21 12:50 AM.
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I think the supply issues are real, although I don’t doubt that salesmen are playing up this angle. I’m curious to hear what you end up doing. I’m not quite sure how a Steinway C goes MIA smile.

Here are a few more Estonia videos (including a couple from Keith’s store). The musical selections are quite different and highlight some of the versatility of the instruments.

Gershwin on the L210:


Liszt Funerailles on the L225: (definitely worth listening through to the end…)


And why Hugh Sung loves the L210 (Schubert selection starts at minute 3:00)


I get the sense you’re not very interested in the Estonia brand, but they are beautiful instruments that are well worth considering!

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Originally Posted by Sgisela
I get the sense you’re not very interested in the Estonia brand, but they are beautiful instruments that are well worth considering!

I dont doubt they are fantastic sounding instruments, but committing to the brand means I loose most of the resale value, which in my yamahas case is pretty significant. They have brand reputation similar to chinese pianos (which can be good instruments, no doubt). They ship 90% of their smallish production to USA, so in Europe they are virtually unheard of. Kind of USA-only brand I guess.

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Originally Posted by kre
Originally Posted by Sgisela
I get the sense you’re not very interested in the Estonia brand, but they are beautiful instruments that are well worth considering!

I dont doubt they are fantastic sounding instruments, but committing to the brand means I loose most of the resale value, which in my yamahas case is pretty significant. They have brand reputation similar to chinese pianos (which can be good instruments, no doubt). They ship 90% of their smallish production to USA, so in Europe they are virtually unheard of. Kind of USA-only brand I guess.
They have a good reputation in Australia too.

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Originally Posted by kre
Originally Posted by Sgisela
It seems like you are narrowing down your choices and perhaps getting close to a decision? However, it also seems to me like you are not fully convinced by your top contenders.

Well there has been development recently. The owner of the S&S C has pretty much disappeared (!) and the dealer just removed the instrument from their for-sale listing. They send me an apologetic message that this is beyond their control and they just cannot sell it without any responses from owner.

Same dealer would be extremely interested in selling me a new S7X, and might be willing to ship one from Hamburg here just for me to try out, or pay my costs for travelling to Hamburg showroom in case I commit to buy. (I respect the offer, but this puts enormous pressure for me to buy it at the end. I don't like bothering the dealer for uncertain deal.)

Went to play SK7 for couple of hours yesterday and still loved it. Shigeru dealer is more than happy to take my C3 as trade in, and would give me 2000 euros less for it than what I paid for it 11 years ago new. (Best 2000 euros ever spent). There seems to be a lot of demand for used instruments.

Both dealers are constantly talking about high demand, low supply (6 months wait for new Shigerus) and prices going up. Heard that Yamaha published new grand price list mid-year, first time ever.

So Steinway being out (for a while, I expect it to be for sale at some point again), S7X maybe in, SK7 being ready for delivery immediately, it is complicated.

Here Pavel reviews an SK2 and comments at the end to consider what an SK7 would sound like if he can compare a 5’11 Shigeru to a 7 foot grand. I’m also amazed at the clarity of the SK2’s lowest octaves in Buskin’s Chaconne. The Shigeru is just a phenomenal instrument. I find myself lucky to own one.




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Originally Posted by Withindale
That’s an informative review. How do you choose from two such wonderful instruments?


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Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by Withindale
That’s an informative review. How do you choose from two such wonderful instruments?

It is, probably the best piano comparison video I've seen.

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I have now made up my mind, I'm going to be a happy owner of a new Shigeru Kawai SK7!

Dealbreaker was Yamaha dealer, who thinks my C3 is worth exactly half of what Shigeru dealer thinks it is, so I have very low motivation to arrange a S7X demo now. Not surprisingly, S7X and SK7 prices are identical to the last cent, BTW. Shigeru dealer will give me 2 weeks period, where I can return the piano and cancel the deal, if for some reason it turns into completely different instrument at my living room (I seriously doubt that).

Thanks all for your very helpful comments during this process, I would probably not have even tried Shigeru without this thread. Photos will follow when I get the instrument!

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Originally Posted by kre
I have now made up my mind, I'm going to be a happy owner of a new Shigeru Kawai SK7!

Dealbreaker was Yamaha dealer, who thinks my C3 is worth exactly half of what Shigeru dealer thinks it is, so I have very low motivation to arrange a S7X demo now. Not surprisingly, S7X and SK7 prices are identical to the last cent, BTW. Shigeru dealer will give me 2 weeks period, where I can return the piano and cancel the deal, if for some reason it turns into completely different instrument at my living room (I seriously doubt that).

Thanks all for your very helpful comments during this process, I would probably not have even tried Shigeru without this thread. Photos will follow when I get the instrument!
Fantastic and congratulations! Welcome to the club! You know most piano enthusiasts know how exceptional these pianos are but I am surprised that as far as I can tell there are not many owners here at PW or maybe they are just quiet. I find Kawai dealers tend to be more willing to negotiate than some other some dealers of other Asian brands- at least that is what I have found. You are so lucky to own such a fine instrument in the SK7 and perhaps one the finest pianos in the world. I hope you can play something for us and pictures are always welcome.


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Congrats!!


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Congrats, Kre! I can’t imagine you would want to return such a wonderful piano— But it’s reassuring to know that you have that option

Enjoy 🤙🤙


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Congratulations, Kre! 🎈🎉🎊
I suspect that the dealer’s flexibility about the purchase reflects their conviction in the quality of the piano. I’m sure you will enjoy it for many years! I’m looking forward to seeing the photos!

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