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You know guys, I dont like to unnecessarily complicate my life. I either like something, or I dont.
I like semantics too though .......... 😂

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Originally Posted by Dore
For people with a half pedal VST setup and pedals that support it, is that what is going on? Bear in mind, I'm asking about what the VST's are doing, not what a real piano would do....

Dore,

I guess you already understood that, if you want to build something serious, this is a wrong strategy. Most existing piano plugins either do not support half-pedaling, or keep their implementation secret, or provide half-built would-be tools for supporting it via velocity curves etc. Only a small number of plugins have a usable implementation: Garritan CFX, Ravenscroft 275 and Synthogy ACD among those, and each of them has its own implementation of half-pedaling, depending on its specific architecture.

I think you should start with understanding the physical phenomena under the string damping, which is not as daunting task as it seems to be.

What is, actually, half-pedaling, re-pedaling, catch-pedaling etc. It's simply a partial reducing of the energy of the oscillating string(s) using some very soft felt pads. How the pianist applies the damper pedal is another question, which is related to his (her) art. The decca resonance is affected post-factum, after the string oscillation energy is reduced.

Given a sounding sample (samples), it is possible to partially reduce their energy according to some envelope changes. The parameters of the envelope changes should depend A) on the note, B) on the depth of the pedal press, and C) on the duration of the press. This is almost all you need to know to start some implementation. Forget about arduino: there exist a host of inexpensive pedals for this, of continuous and on-off type.

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I think you misunderstand the purpose of the Arduino. I don't have a pedal or dp that supports continuous cc64. So I cannot experience half damping because I do not have the hardware. Short of buying a new dp or expensive equipment, I've decided to buy a Yamaha pedal and make a "pedal to midi" hardware controller using an Arduino as a microcontroller.

Point taken about the the physics of damper pedals though. I've already observed garritans behavior, and if it's one that people like, then I may like it too when I can actually control it with my foot. Ive written some pseudocode to mimic their behavior
. Not sure I can implement it in kontakt or sfz yet.


1928 Mason & Hamlin Model A
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Originally Posted by newer player
Thanks NP. That was exactly what I thought garritan was doing. Now to figure out how the envelope changes are implemented....


1928 Mason & Hamlin Model A
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Originally Posted by Dore
I think you misunderstand the purpose of the Arduino. I don't have a pedal or dp that supports continuous cc64. So I cannot experience half damping because I do not have the hardware.

So you're developing a virtual piano without actually having the hardware to play it?


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Originally Posted by JoeT
So you're developing a virtual piano without actually having the hardware to play it?

With the arduino pedal he will have the hardware.

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Originally Posted by Dore
I think you misunderstand the purpose of the Arduino. I don't have a pedal or dp that supports continuous cc64. So I cannot experience half damping because I do not have the hardware. Short of buying a new dp or expensive equipment, I've decided to buy a Yamaha pedal and make a "pedal to midi" hardware controller using an Arduino as a microcontroller.-

These not ok?
https://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-pedal-controller
https://beatbars.com/en/expression-to-midi.html
https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php

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I was thinking that this cannot be the first time anyone has had a need for a MIDI pedal. And sem found three commercial products to suit that need ... each the size of a thumb drive. Superb, eh?

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Dore, Bechstein Digital is Kontakt and supports half pedal. That any help?


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Originally Posted by _sem_
Originally Posted by Dore
I think you misunderstand the purpose of the Arduino. I don't have a pedal or dp that supports continuous cc64. So I cannot experience half damping because I do not have the hardware. Short of buying a new dp or expensive equipment, I've decided to buy a Yamaha pedal and make a "pedal to midi" hardware controller using an Arduino as a microcontroller.-

These not ok?
https://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-pedal-controller
https://beatbars.com/en/expression-to-midi.html
https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php

Thanks. Those are helpful. But seeing as I already have Arduinos lying around doing nothing, and I can hack the arduino code to optimize it as I like, and its also another teaching opportunity to get my kids to help with their coding/hardware, I'm choosing the DIY avenue. Definitely if I hit a big roadblock, I'll probably purchase one of those.

I don't post that often, but if you've seen the work that I've done, you'll notice that I take a real DIY approach to everything. I have a goal to create great piano sample libraries investing mostly time rather than money. I could invest more money, but I get the fulfillment out of doing it myself. More than half of my microphones are hand built, and I built them especially for sampling pianos. I could buy more commercial libraries, but I want to build it myself. I want to see what I can achieve with almost nothing.


1928 Mason & Hamlin Model A
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Originally Posted by MarkOfJohnson
Dore, Bechstein Digital is Kontakt and supports half pedal. That any help?

Hi Mark-

Since I don't own all of the libraries that support half pedal, anyone who can describe the actual behavior of their supported VST's is really helpful.

You'd have to use a DAW like I did to go through varying levels of CC64 on release and after release to see if there are differences.

I know that this is work, and I don't expect anyone to volunteer this help. There is no published open source code for this as far as I know, but if I can understand the behavior, I can attempt to script it. No guarantees on if I have the talent to write the script though.

In terms of Garritan, the curves that NP pointed me to basically confirmed what I thought. Here is the behavior as I see it:

On release,
if CC64 is 64-127, then it's a normal full sustain
if CC64 is 0-31, then it's a normal release
if CC64 is 32-63 (half pedal range), then the release time will vary depending on the value. Lower value is closer to normal release, higher value is closer to full sustain. Curve is described basically in NP's thread.

Furthermore, if the release happened when CC64 was in the half pedal range, and CC64 then changes:
if CC64 is 64-127, then keep the previous gain and continue with full sustain time
if CC64 is 0-31, then it's a normal release
if CC64 is 32-63 and value increased, do nothing
if CC64 is 32-63 and the value decreased, shorten sustain according to curve


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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by JoeT
So you're developing a virtual piano without actually having the hardware to play it?

With the arduino pedal he will have the hardware.

A Yamaha PF85 is enough to develop a virtual piano instrument? With no action remotely close to any current day piano controller? Is it doing more than 8 steps of velocity sensor resolution?


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JoeT: I am sure that Dore appreciates your concern, but if you go back and read a bit about Dore expertise on creating sample libraries, you may understand that you are kind of questioning if Babe Ruth is fit for sports...

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Originally Posted by JoeT
A Yamaha PF85 is enough to develop a virtual piano instrument?

Why not? You play a key and you get a MIDI event. It is a weighted and velocity sensitive action. Some people even say that they like the "legendary" Yamaha KX-88 master keyboard with basically the same action. (Plus aftertouch)

Originally Posted by JoeT
With no action remotely close to any current day piano controller?

From the player perspective the Yamaha Action Effect key action is remotely close to a basic level current day digital piano action.

Have you played it yourself?

Originally Posted by JoeT
Is it doing more than 8 steps of velocity sensor resolution?

I have a PF80. I can check some day. But probably yes. Why wouldn't it?

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So I just played around with CC64 in Noire, and the behavior is similar to Garritan, but with some notable changes:

* The half pedal range is much wider, not just 32-64
* Once the finger releases the key, the release time is set depending on CC64 value, there is no release time changes after the key is released.

On one hand, this probably makes Garritan better, because after key release you can still cut the release time fractionally if you're pedaling between 32-64. Noire will only respond again with a fast release when CC64 goes below 10. It also confirms to me that you probably cannot change the release time AFTER the release has been triggered by finger release (in Kontakt) - that was bugging me last night. On the other hand, it gives me hope that I can probably write a script or something like Noire's behavior.


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Buy me a coffee if you like it.
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Some players, such as VI Labs U and Ravenscroft, allow to adjust the pedal velocity curve to make half pedaling effect configurable by user.


Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
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Originally Posted by VladK
Some players, such as VI Labs U and Ravenscroft, allow to adjust the pedal velocity curve to make half pedaling effect configurable by user.

More accurate statement would be that all 5 VI Labs pianos allow to set the minimum and maximum pedal velocity where the half pedal effect is triggered.
All Synthogy and VSL Synchron pianos also allow to set the half-pedal min/max velocity range.
I assume they all implement the linear velocity curve between min and max values.

I do not know any other sampled library that offers this option.


Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
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Thanks Vlad-

Does the half pedal velocity minimum setting have a boundary, or is it zero?
Does the half pedal velocity maximum setting have a boundary, or is it 127?

Most importantly, do you know what the default is?


1928 Mason & Hamlin Model A
You can play it as a free VI along with my Fazioli F308 library HERE
Buy me a coffee if you like it.
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