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Originally Posted by deadlymajesty
Any one with NV5(S) who can corroborate this finding? That, the pivot length is short like an average upright action, so playing close to the fallboard isn't as effortless as a grand action.

I measured once the key length in my K300, and it is 37.5 cm. The pivot length is 21.5 cm. For white keys. It believe the action of the K300 is the same as in the K200 and NV5.

The action of the K300/K200/NV5 is very nice. I had a CA58 (Grand Feel Compact) before that, the action of which is very different in design compared to both upright and grand actions. To me the 'acoustic' action feels considerably better, and it was the main reason to switch.

Also note that longer keys do not make an action necessarily lighter. It is true that longer keys make the difference between playing at the key ends vs at the fall board smaller but overall the action can be heavier. E.g. the K500 has longer keys, yet the action is substantially heavier than that of the K300.

PS hopefully someone with an NV5 can confirm the key length is the same as in a K300. It think it is but not 100% certain.

Last edited by pianogabe; 09/18/21 07:05 AM.
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by deadlymajesty
Originally Posted by JoeT
That means you have to place the piano action further back at the other side of the pivot for a properly balanced key. Every inch and every ounce you add, you have to add at both sides of the balance pin.

As you noticed: Without a piano action, you only need the front side of the keystick and you can fold the rest.

Notice the depth of NV5, NU1, CA49, CA79 is all at 46 or 47cm. So it's definitely possible to design a longer pivot in a small package.

If you only need one half of a keystick, it's possible to make it a few inches longer. If you need a balanced key and an actual piano action on top of it, you can't go with 48 cm keys in an 46 cm enclosure. And you need space for the action itself too.

Quote
But they certainly saved a lot of money repurposing their acoustic parts for their DPs,

Using an action from a acoustic piano is what actually makes it a hybrid digital and that is the main selling point.

Quote
or they could design a more compact action from scratch like Grand Feel 3 that will be indistinguishable from the real thing. Anyway, I fear the technology of digital pianos has reached a plateau since the original Grand Feel 1 action.

Nothing with the moniker "Grand Feel" plays like the real thing. People buying the Novus series don't want this stuff.


N1X/N2/N3 don't have a real damper system and the Novus series can't stimulate a specific type of string resonance, what's real? Most uprights don't feel very real to me either. But then I'm never going to own an acoustic again. It's high maintenance, virtually always out of tune, quite fake compared to the best pianos out there.... /s

I don't see why the mechanism can't go vertical or something different. Of course you can correct me on how it's physically impossible to emulate a horizontal design with another. I doubt anyone is working on it (not enough competition in this space, the cheap knockoffs are only copying digital pianos from 20 years ago), judging from how far we've come since the 1980s in terms of digital piano technology. Yes, the tech has been quite a bit better in the last decade (I still remember DPs were looked down upon and scoffed at by most pianists only 15 years ago, actually that snobbish sentiment will never go away, but many have come around), but the very best is done by copying directly from acoustic pianos (nothing wrong with that to begin with, but it also means we haven't had any revolutionary ideas in digital piano hardware design). And acoustic piano technology hasn't really changed in the last 100 years, arguably, it would be sad to see that happen to digital pianos too. Going digital makes it ever more accessible and affordable to everyone who wants to learn it. People who can't afford a good grand piano, and regular maintenance/tuning, can get something akin to that for about 1/10 of the cost (N1X & NV10).

I'm used to buying second hand, but it's much harder to do that in such a niche market and when considering the top range of that niche.

I may not be welcome here for being such as digital enthusiast, just as some views may not be welcome in a general piano forum. I probably should go back to where I belong, the CA79/CA99 thread, because I only want a real digital piano, not a fake digital piano that plays like an acoustic /s.

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Originally Posted by pianogabe
Originally Posted by deadlymajesty
Any one with NV5(S) who can corroborate this finding? That, the pivot length is short like an average upright action, so playing close to the fallboard isn't as effortless as a grand action.

I measured once the key length in my K300, and it is 37.5 cm. The pivot length is 21.5 cm. For white keys. It believe the action of the K300 is the same as in the K200 and NV5.

The action of the K300/K200/NV5 is very nice. I had a CA58 (Grand Feel Compact) before that, the action of which is very different in design compared to both upright and grand actions. To me the 'acoustic' action feels considerably better, and it was the main reason to switch.

Also note that longer keys do not make an action necessarily lighter. It is true that longer keys make the difference between playing at the key ends vs at the fall board smaller but overall the action can be heavier. E.g. the K500 has longer keys, yet the action is substantially heavier than that of the K300.

PS hopefully someone with an NV5 can confirm the key length is the same as in a K300. It think it is but not 100% certain.

That's good to hear. Got to get a chance to try the legendary NV5 & NV10 some time in the future to see for myself (not really in a hurry right now, still another 15 months before paying off my CA79 repayments). I just wanted to start thinking about the next purchase, it took me years from when I was contemplating a CA67 to finally getting a CA79 for myself.

I remember trying some Kawai uprights, not too bad, but it's hard to go back once you know what's possible with a longer pivot. I was hoping the NV5's upright action belonged to one of those larger uprights that have a longer pivot.

I do understand many things are at play when it comes to touch. As Stu from Merriam Music noted, NV10's action can feel heavy or light simply due to volume, let alone other factors.

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Just got news on my NV10s order from March. It won’t be anytime soon. My dealer told me that Kawai changed their sales strategy from selling through authorized reseller (exclusive importer) which there was only one in Poland, to direct sales where shops and dealers will be able to directly order instruments from Kawai (if I understood that correctly). I don’t know if it’s a global move or it’s only for countries without official Kawai branch.

Either way what I know:
- this previous exclusive reseller in Poland won’t get any more shipments from Kawai (it’s strange a bit)
- other dealers (including mine, from which I’ve ordered) still haven’t got any prices and sales terms, “it’s a little messy”
- that previous reseller still have NV10 in stock available for purchase laugh I got recommendation to reconsider my choice and buy it because “most probably new shipments will have significantly higher prices)

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Originally Posted by bilb
Just got news on my NV10s order from March. It won’t be anytime soon. My dealer told me that Kawai changed their sales strategy from selling through authorized reseller (exclusive importer) which there was only one in Poland, to direct sales where shops and dealers will be able to directly order instruments from Kawai (if I understood that correctly). I don’t know if it’s a global move or it’s only for countries without official Kawai branch.

Either way what I know:
- this previous exclusive reseller in Poland won’t get any more shipments from Kawai (it’s strange a bit)
- other dealers (including mine, from which I’ve ordered) still haven’t got any prices and sales terms, “it’s a little messy”
- that previous reseller still have NV10 in stock available for purchase laugh I got recommendation to reconsider my choice and buy it because “most probably new shipments will have significantly higher prices)


I have to say, that Kawai distribution is very weak in Poland and was for many years. I do not know why and how SMC was doing it, as they are distributor of many other major musical instruments manufacturers. Kawai.pl site was never looking like real Kawai site and information there was horribly outdated.

I hope that this move will bring better distribution for Kawai pianos and it will be easier to play on them in shop.

BTW, do you know whether there is NV10S in any shop in Poland at the moment?

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Bad news! frown

Have you considered Yamaha? What's the availability of the Avant Grands in Warsaw?

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Originally Posted by maucycy
I have to say, that Kawai distribution is very weak in Poland and was for many years. I do not know why and how SMC was doing it, as they are distributor of many other major musical instruments manufacturers. Kawai.pl site was never looking like real Kawai site and information there was horribly outdated.
Yeah, kawai.pl was a joke and now is under maintenance. I wonder what happened and what will change. Someone needs to order and unpack those containers from Asia, and I believe SMC was doing just that.

Originally Posted by maucycy
I hope that this move will bring better distribution for Kawai pianos and it will be easier to play on them in shop.
I don't think it'll change anything regarding availability of hybrids. For a piano shop to showcase a model they need to buy them with a hope to sell it. With NV10 I've been told in couple of places that it's too expensive to buy to have it just in stock. So I couldn't even test NV10 before placing my order.

Originally Posted by maucycy
BTW, do you know whether there is NV10S in any shop in Poland at the moment?
I am sure that there is not even one NV10s in Poland. I have ordered NV10 in March and a week before delivery NV10s was released and I decided to cancel and order NV10s. From that time I was regularly asking what is the status, but SMC didn't know when it will be available (they even didn't know what the price will be!).

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Have you considered Yamaha? What's the availability of the Avant Grands in Warsaw?
Unfortunately in Poland there is too small market for NV10 and N1X frown I couldn't find these anywhere in Warsaw and in largest shops in other cities. But there is a piano shop in Warsaw where I tested NU1X and NV5. But I wasn't impressed with NU1X. The action was... how to describe it... too shallow and hard (hard when bottoming the key). Also action thumping noise was excessive imo (something that I need to consider too...). But my test was like 5 mins. When I came back another day NU1X has been sold. Generally, NV5 was much, much better for me, but I'd like to have a grand piano action. So I am somewhat forced to reason like: if NV5 and NU1X are similar in comparisons with their grand counterparts and I like NV5 and don't like NU1X, then I'll also not like N1X and will be probably satisfied with NV10 laugh

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Was this meant as a joke?
Originally Posted by bilb
If NV5 and NU1X are similar in comparisons with their grand counterparts
... and I like NV5 and don't like NU1X,
... then I'll also not like N1X and will be probably satisfied with NV10.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Was this meant as a joke?
It sounds like a joke but this is reality where you know you want a hybrid but cannot test it anywhere.

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The N1X is far different from the NU1X. You can’t extrapolate what you have felt on one on the other.


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Frederic makes the point ...
Originally Posted by bilb
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Was this meant as a joke?
It sounds like a joke but this is reality where you know you want a hybrid but cannot test it anywhere.
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
The N1X is far different from the NU1X. You can’t extrapolate what you have felt on one on the other.

Just because you cannot try piano A does not mean you can infer its characteristics by examining some other piano B.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Frederic makes the point ...
Originally Posted by bilb
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Was this meant as a joke?
It sounds like a joke but this is reality where you know you want a hybrid but cannot test it anywhere.
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
The N1X is far different from the NU1X. You can’t extrapolate what you have felt on one on the other.

Just because you cannot try piano A does not mean you can infer its characteristics by examining some other piano B.

You both are definitely right. I am sure N1X is an excellent instrument. I read everything I could about N1X and NV10 and I wanted to place my bet on one of them. I decided only using my feeling to a particular piano brand. Also other models of the same brand are probably designed by the same people, using similar components, which I think could make them a little bit similar in some aspects. Yeah, basically gut feeling, that's it smile
Oh, also real damper in NV10 makes a bit difference here. If you cannot test, you think NV10 could provide somewhat fuller acoustic experience. Still it's gut feeling. It could be that I am totally wrong here, but without testing I cannot know.

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Yeah the nv10 has more realistic damper pedals, but the N1X has more realistic hammer sensing for certain string resonance techniques like leaving the string damper or whatever it is called off after striking a key and releasing it without striking the string by a slow key press and detecting and providing sounds based on key release velocity and it has binaural samples which may sound more realistic using headphones. Seems like the latter is more frequently applicable. So maybe binaural vs damper pedals is the consideration for most?

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Once you have the real hammer action, it seems a lot of these details are the last 5%, typically just icing on the cake. I've never heard anyone say that the damper or the smooth release/key-off velocity made it broke the experience (though they are certainly noticeable when the player pays attention).


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Exactly. There are 88 things to worry about in a piano.
They need to feel good.
They need to sound good ... like a piano should.

I don't care much for fluff 'n' dust minutia.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Once you have the real hammer action, it seems a lot of these details are the last 5%, typically just icing on the cake. I've never heard anyone say that the damper or the smooth release/key-off velocity made it broke the experience (though they are certainly noticeable when the player pays attention).
I'd put that not at the last 5%. More like the last half percent.

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So you’re saying that the difference between N1X and NV10 is miniscule? Is it the same with NU1X vs NV5? Because I clearly preferred NV5 over NU1X.

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You can always prefer one over another (greatly, even), and perhaps even because of these "minuscule" differences.

But by and large, the fact that both the AvantGrands and Novuses have real acoustic piano actions is what sets them apart. I would think for most people, that makes for the biggest playing difference.


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Well said, Gombessa, one is not necessarily better than the other, and it all depends on what’s most important to the buyer.


Do you want a built-in audio card or a mechanical damper?

Do you want a stiff/firm action or a loose/bouncy action?

Are you okay with ugly 1980s-type buttons, or would you prefer a touch screen that never turns fully black? I don’t mind the ‘always-on screen’ but some seem to be bothered by this.

In the end, as Gombessa says, it’s the grand action that sets these instruments apart (theoretically) from other ‘conventional digitals’ but not from each other because it all comes down to personal preferences, specific features, design/style (I favor the NV10 here), etc……

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Originally Posted by Pete14
...In the end, as Gombessa says, it’s the grand action that sets these instruments apart (theoretically) from other ‘conventional digitals’ but not from each other because it all comes down to personal preferences, specific features, design/style (I favor the NV10 here), etc……

Both the NV10 and the N1X create the illusion of sitting at a real acoustic piano, i.e., they get you as close as possible to an acoustic while still primarily being digital pianos.

I would think that virtually everybody (who desires a hybrid) would be happy with either one if they were to receive it as a gift. The differences between the the two would not spoil the experience.

As an N1X owner, I would have been very happy to receive an NV10 as a gift. I would feel no need to exchange/replace it with something else. However, if I was gifted any other common digital piano, I would be considering how to trade up to an N1X/NV10.

God Bless,
David


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Originally Posted by Pete14
Are you okay with ugly 1980s-type buttons

Retro, the correct term is retro. smile

And yes, there are those of us who do prefer it. (Of course there really isn't much to adjust so there isn't a need for a flashy interface.)


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