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I find some of the views expressed in this thread a bit strange.

I play some quite advanced pieces on my FP10, (I have a recording of one of them in the members recording area on this forum at the moment) and as long as I use Pianoteq to provide the sound I find the results rather pleasing. As an amateur I am not trying to emulate concert pianists here, I'm just playing for my own enjoyment. And enjoy it I do...

Sure, of course I would prefer to play on an acoustic grand (or even an upright), but to suggest that digital pianos are not suitable for practicing classical pieces is just plain wrong in my view.

You might as well argue that playing on upright pianos is a waste of time because they do not have a proper grand piano action.

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You are correct. But every baseball diamond has a left field. As does Piano World.
There are always divergent opinions coming in from left field.
Originally Posted by Chris James
I find some of the views expressed in this thread a bit strange.

... to suggest that digital pianos are not suitable for practicing classical pieces is just plain wrong in my view.

You might as well argue that playing on upright pianos is a waste of time because they do not have a proper grand piano action.

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Originally Posted by Chris James
Sure, of course I would prefer to play on an acoustic grand (or even an upright), but to suggest that digital pianos are not suitable for practicing classical pieces is just plain wrong in my view.

You might as well argue that playing on upright pianos is a waste of time because they do not have a proper grand piano action.
This!

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Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by Chris James
Sure, of course I would prefer to play on an acoustic grand (or even an upright), but to suggest that digital pianos are not suitable for practicing classical pieces is just plain wrong in my view.

You might as well argue that playing on upright pianos is a waste of time because they do not have a proper grand piano action.
This!

Yes.

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Originally Posted by Chris James
I find some of the views expressed in this thread a bit strange.

I play some quite advanced pieces on my FP10, (I have a recording of one of them in the members recording area on this forum at the moment) and as long as I use Pianoteq to provide the sound I find the results rather pleasing. As an amateur I am not trying to emulate concert pianists here, I'm just playing for my own enjoyment. And enjoy it I do...

Sure, of course I would prefer to play on an acoustic grand (or even an upright), but to suggest that digital pianos are not suitable for practicing classical pieces is just plain wrong in my view.

You might as well argue that playing on upright pianos is a waste of time because they do not have a proper grand piano action.


Sorry but your c-minor nocturne is far from what I can call "pleasing" and is both technically and musically far above your playing level (too hard). I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?
Do you know what rubato means?

Last edited by maucycy; 09/16/21 09:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by maucycy
Sorry but your c-minor nocturne is far from what I can call "pleasing" and is both technically and musically far above your playing level (too hard). I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?

perhaps because people play music for enjoyment rather than trying to impress other people who think there is a right way and a wrong way to enjoy yourself?

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Originally Posted by jackopiano
Originally Posted by maucycy
Sorry but your c-minor nocturne is far from what I can call "pleasing" and is both technically and musically far above your playing level (too hard). I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?

perhaps because people play music for enjoyment rather than trying to impress other people who think there is a right way and a wrong way to enjoy yourself?

All good but why your enjoyment need to hurt other persons? Noone is expecting him to play at afromentioned Seong-jin level, but the piece he posted it's just far too hard for him. Music is made to enjoy people, watching someone trying very hard and can't handling it isn't anything beautiful. One of our goals here has to be pointing out people what they should correct, and not only writing it's all right. I mean, this performance is lacking piano playing basics and he can't go over the more difficult places. One of the best solutions is to record yourself, and watch with sheet music why to others play so well and me so bad. There are a lot of pieces he could play well, he does not understand Chopin's music, Bach, Scarlatti or easy Beethoven would be much better suited for him (Bagatelles, Sonatas op.49 and so on). Yet he took probably the most difficult Nocturne to perform and is learning other hard one. Schumann and Shubert both written a lot of pretty romantic music, which would be easier for him to execute properly. It's just the wrong way.

Even if you do something for enjoyment, just do it good.
And list of composers goes on and on. Why to play hard piano piece of the most difficult piano composer? What's the reason?

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Originally Posted by peterws
A Renner action that uses springs! Do they all do that?

Yes, an upright piano action uses a hammer rail spring to return the hammer to the hammer rail, a damper spring to return the damper onto the strings and a jack spring to return the jack.

I know "springs = bad" is part of the PW folklore for some reason, but real pianos don't care.

Originally Posted by Chris James
I find some of the views expressed in this thread a bit strange.

The strange thing are actually amateur opinions about practicing advanced classical repertoire on rudimentary digital pianos, which don't fly outside this forum. Obviously many people practice beginner repertoire from piano schools there and then move up to a real piano, if they care about solo piano.

Originally Posted by maucycy
Sorry but your c-minor nocturne is far from what I can call "pleasing" and is both technically and musically far above your playing level (too hard). I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?
Do you know what rubato means?

Their teacher would tell them.

Amateurs are unable to assess difficulty and barebone instruments like the P-45 or FP-10 invite to this kind of stuff. Most people who just want to enjoy themselves at home are way better off with an arranger keyboard. With an unweighted action they don't even need get taught proper technique and the risk of injury is nil.

Originally Posted by Chris James
You might as well argue that playing on upright pianos is a waste of time because they do not have a proper grand piano action.

The argument of "time well spent" is from a perspective of skill development. Playing Chopin is attainable for amateur pianists on an upright piano, but not by wasting time with practicing too hard repertoire on completely unsuitable equipment. Instead you will ruin these pieces forever, because unlearning is much harder than learning. That's why for example Beethoven's Für Elise is banned pretty much everywhere.


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@jackopiano: Don't get flustered. We just have a new troll, that's all.
Originally Posted by jackopiano
Originally Posted by maucycy
Sorry but your c-minor nocturne is far from what I can call "pleasing" and is both technically and musically far above your playing level (too hard). I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?
perhaps because people play music for enjoyment rather than trying to impress other people who think there is a right way and a wrong way to enjoy yourself?

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Originally Posted by AmPianistComposer
I currently own a Yamaha P-45 (four years old) and I'm currently working on Rachmaninoff's moment musicaux, Chopin's polonaise, and some Liszt etudes...

Do you think this piano meets the requirements?
Lately, I have been feeling that this piano is not performing up to the mark (not receiving the right sound and touch response that I expect).
I've worked on different ways to improvise my technique, but I still don't see a change.

What do you think?
Should I upgrade to a new one? Any tips?

I've lately been considering the Yamaha Clavinova and Kawai Concert Artist series.
Maybe-
=> Yamaha clp 785 or 795gp
OR
=> Kawai ca99

It would be helpful if you could also provide insights on which of the two mentioned are better too! smile

Thanks!
AmPianistComposer

AmPianistComposer,

If its not too late, would you please elaborate more on “the requirements”?

As it currently stands, you are working on some relatively advanced repertoire with a DP known to be at the low end of the spectrum and utilizing one of the oldest designs of moving parts within Yami’s arsenal of what in DP lingo generally passes for “key action”. It probably matters not that your P45 is 4Y’sO; it might matter some for this forum to know how long you’ve been playing / practicing your preferred repertoire with the P45 and any other instruments along the way.

Since you’ve already put on the table that you are not progressing satisfactorily despite your increased efforts, it is fairly obvious you should consider that either you’ve topped out on progress due to your overall capacity for such or you should upgrade to a better instrument that will help you to progress and advance in your playing/learning endeavors .... while there is no sufficiently agreed upon standard for “best” , ergo “better” is also somewhat subjective, be it butter, batter, DP or any other aspect of this world that people might deem worthy of debating what is better ..... there likely will always be debate no matter how firm or loose the criteria 🙂


Also obvious here is the purist VS pragmatist approach to learning be it learning casually or perhaps to the point approaching mastery of relatively advanced repertoire.... yes!, “mastery” is also highly subjective .... but at least the world long ago adopted formal schools of thought with be-knighted judges who get to declare who has mastered and who not ..... anyway, is an AP even on your radar for consideration ? If definitely not is your answer, then you can mostly put aside the purist’s view for now and focus on considering models such as CA99 and CLP7xx and the like, which are at OR near the top of the spectrum of DPs.

Best of luck to you!


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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
@jackopiano: Don't get flustered. We just have a new troll, that's all.
Originally Posted by jackopiano
Originally Posted by maucycy
Sorry but your c-minor nocturne is far from what I can call "pleasing" and is both technically and musically far above your playing level (too hard). I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?
perhaps because people play music for enjoyment rather than trying to impress other people who think there is a right way and a wrong way to enjoy yourself?

@MacMacMac
Someone who is long long here and has as big knowledge as you shouldn't be making a fool of himself, as you with your statements calling me a troll, just because I wrote truth. If you have any argument to argue about Chris James video I am happy to talk.

Otherwise it looks like that you are that we can play as bad as possible if only it gives us joy.
Apparently, he also asked for help regarding his piece and got no help here in the other threads. I will not jump there and rewrite everything, maybe later on.

Last edited by maucycy; 09/16/21 10:52 AM.
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You were being unkind for no reason. Compare your words with those of drewr. Troll vs. not troll.

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Originally Posted by drewr
If its not too late, would you please elaborate more on “the requirements”?

The requirement is actually a piano, that is able to perform Rachmaninoff Op. 16 No. 4, which is actually one of Rachmaninoff's most difficult virtuoso pieces. You might even have some upright pianos struggle with this. And lots of professional pianists as well.

Quote
As it currently stands, you are working on some relatively advanced repertoire with a DP known to be at the low end of the spectrum [...] you are not progressing satisfactorily despite your increased efforts

What is to be expected. It's mechanically and tonally impossible to play this piece on a P-45 while staying faithful to the text. And most likely on any digital piano.


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Originally Posted by maucycy
I really dont know why all amateurs strive to play difficult things bad instead of playing simple things well?

That must be deeply rooted in American culture.


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I've been playing about 3 years now and started on a P-45. Since then, I have upgraded to a CLP 785 and had the opportunity to play on actual grand pianos. To me, there is no question: the CLP 785 is significantly better for learning the instrument than my P-45, and an actual acoustic piano is better than that. If I could do it over again, I'd probably save more and purchase a silent upright. If I needed a piano in the short run to practice with, I imagine a CLP 745 would be a good stop-gap while getting money for the acoustic. I think your life situation matters a lot too. Even though I *say* I would want an acoustic, the lighter weight and smaller footprint of the CLP 785 is nice, and as I am probably several years away from owning a home, it is a great solution for apartment/condo life.

For the record, I love my CLP 785 and don't feel hindered by it at all in improving my skill. It's great for my current level, and I doubt I will be at place where I'm performing hard enough pieces that it matters significantly for a while yet. I've seen skilled YouTube performers handle a variety of challenging pieces on far worse equipment, which isn't a justification or recommendation for owning junk, but a reminder that many things are workable. As an added benefit, it has been a great controller for sampled library products. In my class of piano students, this tech lets me produce far better recordings (in my opinion) than them even though their acoustic instruments outshine mine in terms of action. But if you can afford it, I've heard that many teachers would say to get the best action you can as early as possible. I can see why after playing the grands... it's hard to go back after that. smile

Last edited by Tozen; 09/16/21 11:32 AM.
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Originally Posted by Tozen
I've been playing about 3 years now and started on a P-45.

Did you try Liszt Etudes back then?


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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Tozen
I've been playing about 3 years now and started on a P-45.

Did you try Liszt Etudes back then?

Obviously not. I think I was tackling "Mary Had a Little Lamb" and such back then. wink Why do you ask?

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The CA99 does not have the double escapement of a grand piano. Nor even the single escapement of an upright piano.
Originally Posted by Tupac
An upright would be worse than say a CA99 for various applications. Namely due to the lack of double escapement and increased resistance playing near the fallboard, both of which the CA99 won't suffer from as it mimics a grand action.

Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Tupac
An upright would be worse than say a CA99 for various applications. Namely due to the lack of double escapement and increased resistance playing near the fallboard, both of which the CA99 won't suffer from as it mimics a grand action.

[Linked Image]

The plastic mechanism (there is no piano action) is folded above the key. The description is mostly concerned with the keyboard, but that is NOT part of a piano action. The weighted metal thingy which cannot escape is all that there is in a CA99. ​It has nothing in common with a grand piano action. The keysticks aren't balanced, which is typical for folded actions. Of course it looks much more sophisticated than what is in the P-45, but the basic principle is the same.

This is a single escapement upright piano action. The action is in the left above the balanced keystick (that's why the so-called balance pins are in the center):

[Linked Image]
I said it MIMICKS the action of a grand piano. It will be physically impossible to play pieces that require fast single key repetition on an upright. It will be possible on a CA99.

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Originally Posted by Tupac
I said it MIMICKS the action of a grand piano.

An upright piano action mimics the action of a grand piano. Not the newest one, but an older single escapement model. Still fine for playing any repertoire except the latest and most difficult.

A digital piano doesn't mimic any piano action, not even one of 1699. In fact the piano action is simply missing in a digital piano. There is just a key attached to a hammer weight through some plastic-joint. It mimics a grand piano action as much as organ action, harpsichord action or clavichord action mimics a grand piano action.

Not even hybrid digital pianos mimic piano actions. They just have real piano actions installed in their full original configuration minus the felt that hit the strings.

Quote
It will be physically impossible to play pieces that require fast single key repetition on an upright. It will be possible on a CA99.

Fast single key repetition is also possible on a Casiotone CT-S1 or IBM Model M. Neither "mimic" a grand piano action:

[Linked Image]


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Originally Posted by Tozen
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Tozen
I've been playing about 3 years now and started on a P-45.

Did you try Liszt Etudes back then?

Obviously not. I think I was tackling "Mary Had a Little Lamb" and such back then. wink Why do you ask?

Because on this forum we have people who start with Rachmaninoff Moment Musicaux Opus 16 No 4 on their Yamaha P-45.


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