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Originally Posted by WTF Bach
Having said that, is Bluetooth signal in recorded? Or the meaning is that the internal audio can be recorded via Bluetooth?

If Bluetooth Audio is playing through the ES920, it will be captured (and mixed with the ES920's sound) by the USB audio recorder.

Kind regards,
James
x


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Thanks a lot indeed!

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Dear all, I still have a question.

Would it be possible such a signal chain:

Local off - Midi out through USB (or Bluetooth) controlling a vst->vst sound back to the ES80 through Bluetooth

How big would the latency be?

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Perhaps some answer here : https://www.cme-pro.com/how-to-connect-two-midi-hardware-via-wireless-bluetooth-midi/

Quote
Most often we measured latencies around 5 to 6ms.

Just double the figure if you have 2 Widi links (from and back to the DP).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/14/21 10:51 AM.

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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Perhaps some answer here : https://www.cme-pro.com/how-to-connect-two-midi-hardware-via-wireless-bluetooth-midi/

Quote
Most often we measured latencies around 5 to 6ms.

Just double the figure if you have 2 Widi links (from and back to the DP).

Thanks a lot.

The idea behind my convolute reasoning is to mimick, up to a certain extent, some functionalities which are possible with audio over USB.

For example, should I like to play a piano VST without audio interface, would this trick be successful?

Local off - USB midi to iPad controlling the vst - vst audio back to ES920 through Bluetooth.

Last edited by WTF Bach; 09/14/21 11:10 AM.
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Just bought a new es920, it's very good, prefer it to my N1X, which I don't have anymore.

Some of the F keys seem to grate slightly i find, not sure it's a big issue and I don't notice it whilst playing anyway.

Now I'm considering buying a MP11se for home use and using es920 for gigs, but having both maybe is a stupid idea in the same house? Both have same samples and sound i presume, but for me the es920 is not an action i comfortably would want to play on all day, mp11se I think would be nicer and more suitable, hopefully the action is as fast and capable as es920, the repetition rate is superb on that, perfect in fact.

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Regarding the above info from WFBach, keep in mind that it refers to low latency midi obtained using a specialized hardware and not the embedded Bluetooth-midi included in by default in digital pianos. Using the back and forth standard Bluetooth-midi is a guarantee to unusable latency.

Last edited by vagfilm; 09/14/21 12:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by WTF Bach
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Perhaps some answer here : https://www.cme-pro.com/how-to-connect-two-midi-hardware-via-wireless-bluetooth-midi/

Quote
Most often we measured latencies around 5 to 6ms.

Just double the figure if you have 2 Widi links (from and back to the DP).

Thanks a lot.

The idea behind my convolute reasoning is to mimick, up to a certain extent, some functionalities which are possible with audio over USB.

For example, should I like to play a piano VST without audio interface, would this trick be successful?

Local off - USB midi to iPad controlling the vst - vst audio back to ES920 through Bluetooth.

I didn’t get the PC transmit audio to the DP… you may have more important latency. When you send a MIDI event on a link (whatever the link), it can be processed immediately without risk. When you transmit an audio buffer, there is a jitter which means that if the device process the buffer immediately, there will be a dropout if the next buffer has a slight delay. Then most buffer are delayed to compensate this jitter. And Bluetooth can add an important delay to be sure there will be no dropouts. AptX reduces the latency down to 40ms (see https://www.soundguys.com/understanding-bluetooth-codecs-15352/)… and I am not sure the Kawai is AptX LowLatency…

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/14/21 12:57 PM.

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Kawai's apt-x Bluetooth is not low latency. The lowest claims that I've ever found for LL Bluetooth latency is 32 to 40 milliseconds. I'm not sure exactly, but I think you would want latency to be less than 10 ms.

If you are connected to a computer running a VST, why not just record on the computer?


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Originally Posted by RickM
Kawai's apt-x Bluetooth is not low latency. The lowest claims that I've ever found for LL Bluetooth latency is 32 to 40 milliseconds. I'm not sure exactly, but I think you would want latency to be less than 10 ms.

If you are connected to a computer running a VST, why not just record on the computer?

Thanks to everyone for the clear info provided.

As far as the last question is concerned: if I would like to use a vst on the computer, I can of course drive it through midi USB… but what about playback/monitoring?

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I just use an audio cable from my computer to the line input on my pianos. I do this on both my ca-79 and Es 920. In fact, I have a Windows PC and an iPad go through a USB audio interface connected to a PC, with the output of the audio interface going to the es 920.

I use USB audio interfaces on the computers mainly because the headphone jack output from the computers is poor quality, and in one case doesn't work at all.


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Playback through headphones or an active speaker pair.


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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Playback through headphones or an active speaker pair.

Yes, I understand, everything is possible.

But there is, in my humble opinion, a certain difference between a single USB cable and an USB cable+an audio cable+an external audio interface+external speakers+power chords…

Isn’t it?

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After reading the specs, I see a line-in stereo input on the ES920… you just have to add a cable from your computer soundcard to the ES920. Perhaps the ASIO4ALL if your integrated soundcard is not ASIO compliant.

(And perhaps a ground loop filter if audio+USB interfere badly)

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/14/21 03:27 PM.

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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
After reading the specs, I see a line-in stereo input on the ES920… you just have to add a cable from your computer soundcard to the ES920. Perhaps the ASIO4ALL if your integrated soundcard is not ASIO compliant.

(And perhaps a ground loop filter if audio+USB interfere badly)

I have it that way and works well.


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Originally Posted by WTF Bach
[quote=Frédéric L]But there is, in my humble opinion, a certain difference between a single USB cable and an USB cable+an audio cable+an external audio interface+external speakers+power chords…

Isn’t it?

I'm not sure if you're asking a question or just lamenting the fact that few or no Kawai products include a built-in USB audio interface like many newer Roland and Yamaha products do.

With a USB audio interface on a piano, a single USB cable handles 2-way MIDI and 2-way Audio at the same time. You can send MIDI to an app or VST on a computer, and get the audio back to the piano speakers (usually with LOCAL=OFF on the piano). This is fantastic to have, assuming the sound of the piano speakers is good enough.

I have an old Surface Pro 3 with a broken headphone jack connected to my CA-79. The solution for me sounds messy, but it wasn't expensive and it all hangs down between the piano and the wall so it is out of sight and is functionally the same as a built-in USB audio interface. I have a 4-port USB hub plugged into the single USB port on the surface pro. Into that, I plug the USB MIDI cable from the CA-79, and an inexpensive ($17 to $40) USB audio interface that acts as a soundcard for the Surface Pro. The interface's LINE OUT goes to the LINE IN of the CA-79. With this I can interact with teaching apps on the computer and get the backing track sound to the piano speakers. I can use a VST on the computer if I want. All of the sounds come out the piano speakers and headphones. If I wanted external powered speakers, they would plug into the USB audio interface instead of the cable to the piano LINE IN.

For my ES920, I have a ($30) USB audio interface connected to a 12-year-old Windows PC running Windows 10. The headphone jack from an iPad plugs into an extra LINE IN on the USB interface. The LINE OUT of the interface goes to the LINE IN of the ES920. Everything from both computers comes out the ES920 speakers and headphones.

I don't get any hum from either setup. Many people do. I don't know why I don't.

There are endless possibilities. I just depends on what specifically you want to do, what bits of equipment you already own, and your budget to buy more. The most expensive item is usually external powered speakers (which I don't have or need).


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Originally Posted by RickM
Originally Posted by WTF Bach
[quote=Frédéric L]But there is, in my humble opinion, a certain difference between a single USB cable and an USB cable+an audio cable+an external audio interface+external speakers+power chords…

Isn’t it?

I'm not sure if you're asking a question or just lamenting the fact that few or no Kawai products include a built-in USB audio interface like many newer Roland and Yamaha products do.

With a USB audio interface on a piano, a single USB cable handles 2-way MIDI and 2-way Audio at the same time. You can send MIDI to an app or VST on a computer, and get the audio back to the piano speakers (usually with LOCAL=OFF on the piano). This is fantastic to have, assuming the sound of the piano speakers is good enough.

I have an old Surface Pro 3 with a broken headphone jack connected to my CA-79. The solution for me sounds messy, but it wasn't expensive and it all hangs down between the piano and the wall so it is out of sight and is functionally the same as a built-in USB audio interface. I have a 4-port USB hub plugged into the single USB port on the surface pro. Into that, I plug the USB MIDI cable from the CA-79, and an inexpensive ($17 to $40) USB audio interface that acts as a soundcard for the Surface Pro. The interface's LINE OUT goes to the LINE IN of the CA-79. With this I can interact with teaching apps on the computer and get the backing track sound to the piano speakers. I can use a VST on the computer if I want. All of the sounds come out the piano speakers and headphones. If I wanted external powered speakers, they would plug into the USB audio interface instead of the cable to the piano LINE IN.

For my ES920, I have a ($30) USB audio interface connected to a 12-year-old Windows PC running Windows 10. The headphone jack from an iPad plugs into an extra LINE IN on the USB interface. The LINE OUT of the interface goes to the LINE IN of the ES920. Everything from both computers comes out the ES920 speakers and headphones.

I don't get any hum from either setup. Many people do. I don't know why I don't.

There are endless possibilities. I just depends on what specifically you want to do, what bits of equipment you already own, and your budget to buy more. The most expensive item is usually external powered speakers (which I don't have or need).

Thanks a lot. Indeed everything is easily doable.

I was just concerned about two things:

- the fact that multiple AD/DA conversions, and multiple connections, could degrade the signal and consequently the sound quality

- having a very limited room in my home (I will be forced to put the instrument in a narrow corridor) I will have no room for additional tables, computers, cables, interfaces… and I would prefer not to have cables hanging here and there.

A simple usb connection to an iPad put on the music stand would have been optimal.

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Originally Posted by Kiloseuma
I was thinking about beyerdynamic dt 770 pro 80 ohm or audio technica ath m50x what do you think is better for this price?

Hey mate
I've just bought my Kawai es920 and I've been playing with my ath m50x and I'm not liking the sound (I didn't like with my yamaha p 105 either) . I constantly hear hissing noise when playing on high volume, especially when hitting a bit harder the bass keys. Reducing the treble through the eq reduced the hissing. Some times I also hear some cracks,and I've changed the headphone cables but it did not help. To be honest I'm not sure if my headphone is damaged as it is a bit old (around 5 yr old) and it fell a few times. However, when I listen to music it still sounds great and I don't hear any issues. So maybe it's not that great for piano..
Ive tried playing with a $50 headphone and although the quality is not great, there is no hissing.
I'll spend some time trying to improve my ath m50x sound, and if it doesn't work I'll buy an open headphone instead.

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Quote
A simple usb connection to an iPad put on the music stand would have been optimal.

Bluetooth midi is usable although from what I can measure has more delay than usb midi.

So the cleanest setup is to use Bluetooth midi to the iPad and connect the audio out into the es920.

This is especially useful for the new apple devices which don’t have an audio output port anymore.


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Hi. I just bought an ES920 yesterday and would like to share my experience.

I am an "early intermediate" player, only interested in solo jazz piano at home. I have been playing for one year on acoustics and then 3 years on a Roland FP30.

I am learning jazz piano and found difficult to get the right articulation on the fp30 because the heavy key action. Also got some pain in my pinky finger when I practice too much. I did not like the sound much so I thought it was time to upgrade.

I wanted to be a portable piano for the convenience in case of selling or sending to repair etc. I did not like much the sound of the Roland FP90 so I decided to switch to Kawai. Then, as many others, had the dilemma between MP7SE+monitors and ES920. My room is small so I did not like the idea of the external speakers so the ES920 seemed to be the right choice for me.

I went to the local shop to test the ES920 to make sure that the key action was lighter than de FP30. It was but I noticed that the sound coming from the speakers was not as good as expected, especially in the lower range (lacking bass). The seller told me that it would sound better at home, and I agreed because I know that you normally get a bass boot when you place a speaker next to a wall, so after some thinking (ES920 vs MP7SE + JBL305MKII) I decided to go for ES920.

I inmediately noticed a much better control of the dynamics. Finally I was swinging!. So no complain about the key action. Absolutely love it!

But ths sound from the speaker did not improve much. It is great from middle C upwards but not below (other FP30 owners have pointed this out too).

So I am feeling a bit silly now for not going for the MP7SE + monitors oprions. I could try to return but I do not think they would accept because I tested before buying.

Have anyone tested the MP7SE or ES920 with JBL305? How much of improvement would it be?

I think I will eventually buy the external monitors for the ES920, which is kind of wasted money because I could have done the same with the MP7SE for the same.

Other than this I am very happy with the piano, especially the key action is superb and inmediately improved my playing, which is what I was looking for.

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