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Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Originally Posted by Sebs
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
I suggest that you start by tapping the rhythm with both hands on your lap until it's sharp and you're very comfortable with it, and only then go to the piano and learn the notes. The notes are really easy compared to the rhythm (at least for this song).
I will try this. I assume that could even mean just tapping RH melody rhythm for a few min then add LH for few min? Such that you don't have to drill it for an hour of tapping even little sessions could help? Do you ever use 'dummy note' for example using same single note in both hands?
Here there is no LH rhythm so basically you can tap the beat with your left hand. Yes, I do use dummy notes sometimes, especially to provide the beat. If for instance the LH is complicated I sometimes just play block chords on each beat while learning the RH.

I will be doing eighth note filled octaves for LH for about 90% of the song. I will try working with 'dummy notes' as for some reason I prefer to make some sound or hit a key versus tapping the piano just a silly preference I have. I know

Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Originally Posted by Animisha
Actually, I don't understand why not all composers use notation that is easy to read. As in your example, why use predominantly 8th notes and 16th notes? Why not quarter notes and 8th notes? Why?
Because then you have to change the meter to 2/2 or change where the bar lines are.

Why not change the meter to 4/2? wink
There is also a certain tradition of notating rock and pop in 4/4. It would be strange and confusing to someone who is used to the normal conventions. Actually, I find this notation quite readable and I think it's just a matter of getting used to it.

For me reading it isn't too bad but counting the 1 e & a + sure can be a mouthful and getting it under the fingers is challenging but this is for time trying it and I know it's a stretch my plan is just to try a bar or two as an exercise for a couple days and see how it goes. If it's way to hard I'll hold off.

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Originally Posted by Sebs
[...]For me reading it isn't too bad but counting the 1 e & a + sure can be a mouthful and getting it under the fingers is challenging but this is for time trying it and I know it's a stretch my plan is just to try a bar or two as an exercise for a couple days and see how it goes. If it's way to hard I'll hold off.

Do you have to count every note with a voiced syllable? Can't you do two notes to a count?

Regards,


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Pop music isn't generally easy. I have a few scores which I've not had a real shot at yet; too hard! Would take too long!
There are plenty of 16 beat songs though; Barry white's "You're my everything" mightn't be so bad, but the left hand could be busy . . .


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I take the easy way with four sixteenths: 1 2 3 4 — 2 23 4
I can play faster than I can spit out the 1 e & a stuff — it gives me a headache to try and fit it in.


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I have never seen anyone who could do the 1 e & a thing. When I first learned of it, my immediate thought was "Seriously?"

Very clumsy and non-intuitive, thus more difficult than necessary to remember, and use correctly, all while struggling to also play the notes, keep the rhythm, and put the whole thing together in a way that resembles the music. Don't make things harder than they need to be!

However, many pianists have thrived using a word or a phrase that matches the rhythm.

For 4 equal notes, such as sixteenth notes in this thread, if counting 1 2 3 4 does not help, use a word that has 4 syllables. My favorite is Huckelberry. A friend's favorite is Avocado.

This chart, (below is the link) and others like it are very helpful with rhythm challenges.

http://jazzmando.com/new/images/ClassicalChops.jpg


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Originally Posted by rocket88
[...]
For 4 equal notes, such as sixteenth notes in this thread, if counting 1 2 3 4 does not help, use a word that has 4 syllables. My favorite is Huckelberry. A friend's favorite is Avocado.

This chart, (below is the link) and others like it are very helpful with rhythm challenges.
[...]

Be careful of the words that you choose and how you use them as rhythmic. In normal speech, such words as "huckleberry" and "avocado" have one slightly longer and/or stressed syllables and remaining short syllables. This could lead to unconscious irregular playing of rhythms. I would stick to numbers.

Regards,


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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Syncopated rhythms can look utterly baffling on the page, and sound perfectly playable when you hear them. They're tough to write down (until you learn the patterns), and tough to read back (ditto).

In such cases, you might want to learn the piece (or at least the melody) _by ear_, before you try to match up the notes on the page, to the music in your head.

It's not only beginners who say:

. . . "Oh -- _that's_ what it sounds like!"

when they hear a piece played.

I actually agree with this. Pop music, when a catchy song, you can get the rhythm by hearing in it. Most people can sing it back. The score is hard to read.

I remember in rag time with lots of snncopated rhythms I think it can help if you have a stable beat. Either counting, repeating a left hand every beat or a metronome.



But yes I think pop music has catchy rhythm most often. Remember this song with - only one note - the rhythm makes the tune.


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Originally Posted by BruceD
Be careful of the words that you choose and how you use them as rhythmic. In normal speech, such words as "huckleberry" and "avocado" have one slightly longer and/or stressed syllables and remaining short syllables. This could lead to unconscious irregular playing of rhythms. I would stick to numbers.

Regards,

In my experience, that is not an issue. Students have done well with it. At least with a known word, they typically do not stumble through it with one super-long syllable, and other short ones. But with counting, I have seen people put a very long time on one beat, and rush through others, and then say they did not notice. Perhaps because counting is a series of words, a sentence.

It is like when people use a metronome but do not hear it. Just a bunch of clicks.

But when speaking a known word, that has a known rhythm, they usually notice the rhythmic error because the proper way to say the word is now changed.


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Originally Posted by BruceD
One thing to keep in mind with the rhythmically intricate piano transcriptions of vocal scores of more recent pop songs: the notation, while it should be learned as accurately as possible, is often just an approximation of the liberties that many singers take in their interpretations of these songs. What you see on the page is not always precisely what you hear when the song is performed.
I've had experience of sight-reading lead sheets of pop songs, playing the rhythm precisely as printed in the songbook I was given (in a Christmas concert, where the audience chose what they wanted to sing) in the songs I'd never heard before, which raised eyebrows when the rhythm I played wasn't what the pop group/singer sang. With the songs I actually knew, I discovered that what was notated wasn't always what was sung by the original band: dotted notes were sung more as triplets, straight notes were sung dotted, notes on the beat were sung before or after the beat etc. So, I played what I'd heard before in the songs rather than what was notated.

And we all know that cover versions of older songs often have changes of notes as well as rhythm.........so it depends on which version you're singing/learning too.


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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by rocket88
[...]
For 4 equal notes, such as sixteenth notes in this thread, if counting 1 2 3 4 does not help, use a word that has 4 syllables. My favorite is Huckelberry. A friend's favorite is Avocado.

This chart, (below is the link) and others like it are very helpful with rhythm challenges.
[...]

Be careful of the words that you choose and how you use them as rhythmic. In normal speech, such words as "huckleberry" and "avocado" have one slightly longer and/or stressed syllables and remaining short syllables. This could lead to unconscious irregular playing of rhythms. I would stick to numbers.

Regards,

One more thought that came to me about using words to play rhythms, words that might have tiny uneven rhythms.

If you use a metronome as you speak / practice with such words, the metronome will keep you in perfect time, and any syllables that are slightly longer or shorter, those will be evened out.

But now you will probably speak that word in an unusual manner! laugh


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Originally Posted by rocket88
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by rocket88
[...]
For 4 equal notes, such as sixteenth notes in this thread, if counting 1 2 3 4 does not help, use a word that has 4 syllables. My favorite is Huckelberry. A friend's favorite is Avocado.

This chart, (below is the link) and others like it are very helpful with rhythm challenges.
[...]

Be careful of the words that you choose and how you use them as rhythmic. In normal speech, such words as "huckleberry" and "avocado" have one slightly longer and/or stressed syllables and remaining short syllables. This could lead to unconscious irregular playing of rhythms. I would stick to numbers.

Regards,

One more thought that came to me about using words to play rhythms, words that might have tiny uneven rhythms.

If you use a metronome as you speak / practice with such words, the metronome will keep you in perfect time, and any syllables that are slightly longer or shorter, those will be evened out.

But now you will probably speak that word in an unusual manner! laugh

What's the benefit to use a would like avocado versus 1-e-&-a to me it seems more logical to use 1-e-&-a especially if words can varying syllable length then trying to even out a word seems like an extra step. I'm just wondering as I never used other counting systems.

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Originally Posted by Sebs
What's the benefit to use a would like avocado versus 1-e-&-a to me it seems more logical to use 1-e-&-a especially if words can varying syllable length then trying to even out a word seems like an extra step. I'm just wondering as I never used other counting systems.

Huckelberry does not have varying syllable length if spoken correctly. That is why it is frequently used...a word with clear distinct syllables, enunciated strongly. If there are any minute variations as you say it, they can be eliminated by using a metronome, which you should already be using if rhythms are challenging to you.

BTW, I am not selling these words...just sharing a working tool that has helped dozens of my students with rhythmic / counting challenges. If 1-e-&-a works for you, that is great.

Other than that, I don't think I can explain it any better, so the only thing I can say is, give it a try.

Last edited by rocket88; 09/01/21 12:43 PM.

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Originally Posted by Sebs
I think I know the answer, lots of skill development, practice and time.
One of the things I dislike about the forum here is how many people just insist things come with time. It's of course not technically wrong, but it's often used as a way to limit discussion and cut other people down.

The excerpt you sent doesn't look too hard. There are a couple of places where it doesn't match what was sung. Unless you're specifically practicing reading rhythms, my suggestion would be to play along with the original song. You can either play by ear, or look at the notes from the sheet (which are correct) and feel the rhythm. I don't think there's any point just memorizing this sheet music, you will sound really poor as the rhythms are quite off from the felt rhythm of the original.

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Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by Sebs
I think I know the answer, lots of skill development, practice and time.
One of the things I dislike about the forum here is how many people just insist things come with time. It's of course not technically wrong, but it's often used as a way to limit discussion and cut other people down.

The excerpt you sent doesn't look too hard. There are a couple of places where it doesn't match what was sung. Unless you're specifically practicing reading rhythms, my suggestion would be to play along with the original song. You can either play by ear, or look at the notes from the sheet (which are correct) and feel the rhythm. I don't think there's any point just memorizing this sheet music, you will sound really poor as the rhythms are quite off from the felt rhythm of the original.
Also, to be fair, I mostly play complicated rhythms by ear in some capacity, and I think so do a lot of people. Even when you're reading from sheet music, you often just play it, hear back whether the syncopation sounds right, and make a judgement call based on that.

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Originally Posted by rocket88
Originally Posted by Sebs
What's the benefit to use a would like avocado versus 1-e-&-a to me it seems more logical to use 1-e-&-a especially if words can varying syllable length then trying to even out a word seems like an extra step. I'm just wondering as I never used other counting systems.

Huckelberry does not have varying syllable length if spoken correctly. That is why it is frequently used...a word with clear distinct syllables, enunciated strongly. If there are any minute variations as you say it, they can be eliminated by using a metronome, which you should already be using if rhythms are challenging to you.

BTW, I am not selling these words...just sharing a working tool that has helped dozens of my students with rhythmic / counting challenges. If 1-e-&-a works for you, that is great.

Other than that, I don't think I can explain it any better, so the only thing I can say is, give it a try.

Got it. I didn't know if for some reason you or others would strongly say to use words instead. I agree for using whatever works or what you like as so many things in music are about preference and not right or wrong ways.

Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by Sebs
I think I know the answer, lots of skill development, practice and time.
One of the things I dislike about the forum here is how many people just insist things come with time. It's of course not technically wrong, but it's often used as a way to limit discussion and cut other people down.

The excerpt you sent doesn't look too hard. There are a couple of places where it doesn't match what was sung. Unless you're specifically practicing reading rhythms, my suggestion would be to play along with the original song. You can either play by ear, or look at the notes from the sheet (which are correct) and feel the rhythm. I don't think there's any point just memorizing this sheet music, you will sound really poor as the rhythms are quite off from the felt rhythm of the original.

I'm not trying to memorize it. Can you let me know where the rhythms are way off? I didn't think this sheet is way off and I would imagine my teacher would have told me if it was. It might not look hard for you but it sure will be challenging for me. I'm not even sure if I'll try it I might just try a few bars see how it goes and apply all the tips I got here laugh


Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by Sebs
I think I know the answer, lots of skill development, practice and time.
One of the things I dislike about the forum here is how many people just insist things come with time. It's of course not technically wrong, but it's often used as a way to limit discussion and cut other people down.

The excerpt you sent doesn't look too hard. There are a couple of places where it doesn't match what was sung. Unless you're specifically practicing reading rhythms, my suggestion would be to play along with the original song. You can either play by ear, or look at the notes from the sheet (which are correct) and feel the rhythm. I don't think there's any point just memorizing this sheet music, you will sound really poor as the rhythms are quite off from the felt rhythm of the original.

Also, to be fair, I mostly play complicated rhythms by ear in some capacity, and I think so do a lot of people. Even when you're reading from sheet music, you often just play it, hear back whether the syncopation sounds right, and make a judgement call based on that.

I don't have that skill level to just play it or play it by ear. I would love to just look at a sheet and play it. I need to read/learn it first and then maybe after I learn it I could apply what I think it sounds like.

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Originally Posted by Sebs
Originally Posted by rocket88
Originally Posted by Sebs
What's the benefit to use a would like avocado versus 1-e-&-a to me it seems more logical to use 1-e-&-a especially if words can varying syllable length then trying to even out a word seems like an extra step. I'm just wondering as I never used other counting systems.

Huckelberry does not have varying syllable length if spoken correctly. That is why it is frequently used...a word with clear distinct syllables, enunciated strongly. If there are any minute variations as you say it, they can be eliminated by using a metronome, which you should already be using if rhythms are challenging to you.

BTW, I am not selling these words...just sharing a working tool that has helped dozens of my students with rhythmic / counting challenges. If 1-e-&-a works for you, that is great.

Other than that, I don't think I can explain it any better, so the only thing I can say is, give it a try.

Got it. I didn't know if for some reason you or others would strongly say to use words instead. I agree for using whatever works or what you like as so many things in music are about preference and not right or wrong ways.

Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by Sebs
I think I know the answer, lots of skill development, practice and time.
One of the things I dislike about the forum here is how many people just insist things come with time. It's of course not technically wrong, but it's often used as a way to limit discussion and cut other people down.

The excerpt you sent doesn't look too hard. There are a couple of places where it doesn't match what was sung. Unless you're specifically practicing reading rhythms, my suggestion would be to play along with the original song. You can either play by ear, or look at the notes from the sheet (which are correct) and feel the rhythm. I don't think there's any point just memorizing this sheet music, you will sound really poor as the rhythms are quite off from the felt rhythm of the original.

I'm not trying to memorize it. Can you let me know where the rhythms are way off? I didn't think this sheet is way off and I would imagine my teacher would have told me if it was. It might not look hard for you but it sure will be challenging for me. I'm not even sure if I'll try it I might just try a few bars see how it goes and apply all the tips I got here laugh


Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by ranjit
Originally Posted by Sebs
I think I know the answer, lots of skill development, practice and time.
One of the things I dislike about the forum here is how many people just insist things come with time. It's of course not technically wrong, but it's often used as a way to limit discussion and cut other people down.

The excerpt you sent doesn't look too hard. There are a couple of places where it doesn't match what was sung. Unless you're specifically practicing reading rhythms, my suggestion would be to play along with the original song. You can either play by ear, or look at the notes from the sheet (which are correct) and feel the rhythm. I don't think there's any point just memorizing this sheet music, you will sound really poor as the rhythms are quite off from the felt rhythm of the original.

Also, to be fair, I mostly play complicated rhythms by ear in some capacity, and I think so do a lot of people. Even when you're reading from sheet music, you often just play it, hear back whether the syncopation sounds right, and make a judgement call based on that.

I don't have that skill level to just play it or play it by ear. I would love to just look at a sheet and play it. I need to read/learn it first and then maybe after I learn it I could apply what I think it sounds like.
Is it technically hard or musically? I would assume the latter.

I'm talking about repeating the rhythm, not the melody. Can you listen to a couple seconds of a simple drum groove and play back the rhythm? That's what I'm referring to here.

About the rhythm in the transcription, there are some obvious ones such as having a 16th note in place of a 32nd. You know what, I'll transcribe it myself according to what I hear exactly and post it here today. Normally the details of the rhythm aren't notated because it would make it tedious to read. But it could illuminate the kinds of nuances I'm talking about. That said, it's honestly easier to just feel the rhythm and play it than to labor through a nasty transcription.

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Originally Posted by ranjit
I'm talking about repeating the rhythm, not the melody. Can you listen to a couple seconds of a simple drum groove and play back the rhythm? That's what I'm referring to here.

About the rhythm in the transcription, there are some obvious ones such as having a 16th note in place of a 32nd. You know what, I'll transcribe it myself according to what I hear exactly and post it here today. Normally the details of the rhythm aren't notated because it would make it tedious to read. But it could illuminate the kinds of nuances I'm talking about. That said, it's honestly easier to just feel the rhythm and play it than to labor through a nasty transcription.

No need to write one up. I wasn't saying you were wrong or not believing you, I was only wanting to make sure there wasn't something way off I was missing.

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Originally Posted by Sebs
Originally Posted by ranjit
I'm talking about repeating the rhythm, not the melody. Can you listen to a couple seconds of a simple drum groove and play back the rhythm? That's what I'm referring to here.

About the rhythm in the transcription, there are some obvious ones such as having a 16th note in place of a 32nd. You know what, I'll transcribe it myself according to what I hear exactly and post it here today. Normally the details of the rhythm aren't notated because it would make it tedious to read. But it could illuminate the kinds of nuances I'm talking about. That said, it's honestly easier to just feel the rhythm and play it than to labor through a nasty transcription.

No need to write one up. I wasn't saying you were wrong or not believing you, I was only wanting to make sure there wasn't something way off I was missing.
I don't think you don't believe me. I still think it'll make things clearer to see the differences.

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You are right it's impossible without practicing but sometimes you can use some tools. Musicnotes doesn't have it but you can find tutorial function in musescore (https://musescore.com/verona/driver-s-license/piano-tutorial) which can help you to visualize your hands moves.

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Originally Posted by Henrik Stromberg
You are right it's impossible without practicing but sometimes you can use some tools. Musicnotes doesn't have it but you can find tutorial function in musescore (https://musescore.com/verona/driver-s-license/piano-tutorial) which can help you to visualize your hands moves.


Henrik
I hope you will take some to explore options outside of Musescore.


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