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#3152259 09/01/21 05:57 PM
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Mta88 Offline OP
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So I figured I'll post about it because I'm sure it will really help all those who are new to VSTs.

And as someone previously stated everything we say on piano world is kinda of like a little database for the benefit of new comers into the digital world

I think a lot of folks inadvertently press/play too hard on their controllers unconsciously compensating for soft response in the sound, which changes the tone of the piano and makes it sound jarring to the ears.

This is from my experience usually due to poor amplification from the software and hardware at times.

When using Garageband coupled with the ravenscroft software , and a Fiio a3 amp, for the first time my system is I guess lining up properly for me to play ravenscroft and thoroughly enjoy it.

Real pianos we don't have this issue its just one volume, your hands automatically adjust to accomodate the natural volume levels.

With digitals, we pound on the keys to adjust to the digital volumes or feedback we sometimes get with VSTs

Has anyone else had similar experience and wrongfully like myself, judged the pianos based on almost brittle jarring sound due to the fault being my playing as a result of improper amplification?

Anyways

I recorded some samples of Ravenscroft for folks to enjoy and listen, maybe help them make a decision if they were on the fence of purchasing it.

The tone again isn't for everyone but when the piano is played right, when the keys are caressed instead of pounded, it can be lovely.

cheers guys hope you all enjoy.

Last edited by Mta88; 09/01/21 06:03 PM.

Korg D1:AKG K240 MKII:Pianoteq Bechstein, Petrof, Grotrian,:Garritan CFX:Ravenscroft:Modern U:
KAYSERBURG UH 132 Royal Vertical:
1934 Danemann Upright located at MTA PHARMACY:
“Play me I’m Yours”public piano at my store smile
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Korg D1:AKG K240 MKII:Pianoteq Bechstein, Petrof, Grotrian,:Garritan CFX:Ravenscroft:Modern U:
KAYSERBURG UH 132 Royal Vertical:
1934 Danemann Upright located at MTA PHARMACY:
“Play me I’m Yours”public piano at my store smile
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Korg D1:AKG K240 MKII:Pianoteq Bechstein, Petrof, Grotrian,:Garritan CFX:Ravenscroft:Modern U:
KAYSERBURG UH 132 Royal Vertical:
1934 Danemann Upright located at MTA PHARMACY:
“Play me I’m Yours”public piano at my store smile
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Mta88 Offline OP
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I've got a nice Christmas song I might record and upload later.

I'm really surprised at how much I'm enjoying ravenscroft.

As usual with Vi Labs the playability is amazing..

another thing to note is latency can completely ruin the experience

a lot of folks say 128 buffer is fine..

I'm sorry its not..

it messes with how the piano feels when you play..

I've got mine down to 64 buffer and sometimes 32 buffer..

It makes a difference it really does.


Korg D1:AKG K240 MKII:Pianoteq Bechstein, Petrof, Grotrian,:Garritan CFX:Ravenscroft:Modern U:
KAYSERBURG UH 132 Royal Vertical:
1934 Danemann Upright located at MTA PHARMACY:
“Play me I’m Yours”public piano at my store smile
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Korg D1:AKG K240 MKII:Pianoteq Bechstein, Petrof, Grotrian,:Garritan CFX:Ravenscroft:Modern U:
KAYSERBURG UH 132 Royal Vertical:
1934 Danemann Upright located at MTA PHARMACY:
“Play me I’m Yours”public piano at my store smile
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You've raised an important point here regarding controlling the velocity of sampled pianos. I've also fallen into the trap of playing sampled pianos and not monitoring at realistic levels (ie. low volume) which results in me instinctively striking the keys harder, and triggering too many high velocity samples. It sounds harsh, unnatural and it's a dead giveaway of it being a sampled piano. This issue is more problematic with the more detailed sampled pianos like the VI Labs Ravenscroft, or VSL pianos where they have sampled from ppp to ff or fff. As you have pointed out and demonstrated above, if velocity control is kept in check then they can sound wonderful. Many of the Production-type "scoring" pianos tend to be limited at the high velocity end, and focus on the pp-mf range, so can quite often sound more natural.

Last edited by Craig Richards; 09/01/21 06:34 PM.

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Hey, that's so cool you have an Upright Piano at your Pharmacy! What a great idea smile


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I a have the VILabs pianos... Ravenscroft is my favorite... and I don't have a problem playing too hard. Actually, I have a problem with my RD2000's internal sounds being too dull... I find myself pounding them... I spoke to Roland and they noted you can not change the velocity curve of the tones without changing timbre along with it. This is my single biggest disappointment with the RD2000.

Regarding Ravenscroft, well maybe my playing is delicate but I find the velocity is just perfect out of the box. My playing style is not like everyone else's style, but I can say for sure, the Ravenscroft is more dynamic and "real" than any of the RD2000's piano sounds.

I really like the Ravenscroft piano. So much so, I really don't want another.... I would love to buy more, and just may, but I definitely don't feel a need, only a curiosity.
Peace
Bruce in Philly

Last edited by Bruce In Philly; 09/01/21 07:15 PM.

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Originally Posted by Craig Richards
Hey, that's so cool you have an Upright Piano at your Pharmacy! What a great idea smile

Yes, that's great!

There is an upmarket supermarket near here (600 yen for a premium avocado, that kind of thing...) that has a Yamaha Disklavier upright positioned on the stairs leading up to the second floor area. It used to fill the store with lovely music, produced (via MIDI) by a beautiful acoutic piano, and made the occasional shopping trip there extremely pleasant.

Unfortunately, the powers that be have decided to stop using this acoutic piano as the source of background music for the supermarket, and have switched to simply playing a piano music CD over the poor quality in-store speaker system. The Disklavier upright is still there, but no longer produces a sound...very sad.

Kind regards,
James
x


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Yes @Mta88, you bring up a really important issue that I was just thinking about reecently. I recently tried the new Hammer + Waves sample library and I thought it seemed unrealistic despite the fact it was measured with a robot like the VSL. but once I played it at realistic levels it felts much more authentic.

It also is particularly prominent in the bass notes, where our hearing system is less sensitive. At low volumes, bass needs to be much louder to sound balanced with higher SPLs.

As an audio nerd, I wish the high end sample library makers would provide a few technical specifics on how the samples were made. Tell us the controllers the response was calibrated to and the SPL it was mastered at so we can calibrate our own systems to it.

I really appreciate how the modern U has specific velocity curves for the VPC1 and N1X for example. Likewise, It would be good to know what a realistic volume for playing is -- especially for people who might have never or rarely played on a concert grand. You could, for example, measure the SPL at the lowest possible key velocity at the player position. and match that with your own speakers.

But I realize that's too much work for most people. In most cases, it's probably best to assume that a real grand could very well be louder than whatever volume you're playing your speakers at =]

Last edited by napilopez; 09/01/21 09:13 PM.
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Strangely I have been experiencing this same thing this last week. I have had trouble enjoying the a Ravenscroft since I bought it, then suddenly it seems to be exactly what I’m looking for. It’s caught me off guard.

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Thanks guys

I thought it’d be nice for everyone to have access to piano

I’m just kinda taking it in these days

6000 small business closed last month

For a population of 1.2mil in an island with not much small businesses that’s a lot

Gotta check the accountant and see what’s going on we might have to close our doors by December but such is life

U get screwed
U live
U learn
U do other things.

Biggest problem we have is crime it’s dangerous to have a retail here. So gotta consider all these things. Most of my friends who are pharmacists who got their own pharmacy got robbed and tied up and stuff

Another dude got shot twice in his pharmacy

I tell u yes . Will have to consider all of that not to mention covid killed us all financially.


Anyways piano forum sorry
I digress

We have a community piano for all those folks who has no access to piano.

Digitals and acoustics here are prohibitively expensive for the masses

And we have a community food bank
Those who can afford they put on the shelf
Those who are hungry can take two to three items no questions asked
Also have free books no strings attached no return date through an NGO called for the love of reading TT

I think I gotta give my CFX software another try using this new strategy of caressing the keys . Loll

It’s necessary particularly with samples pianos to play with finesse I’ve realized and the sounds u get are sublime

Has anyone been able to compare noire to CFX btw?

Last edited by Mta88; 09/02/21 05:59 AM.

Korg D1:AKG K240 MKII:Pianoteq Bechstein, Petrof, Grotrian,:Garritan CFX:Ravenscroft:Modern U:
KAYSERBURG UH 132 Royal Vertical:
1934 Danemann Upright located at MTA PHARMACY:
“Play me I’m Yours”public piano at my store smile
https://www.facebook.com/MTAPHARMACY
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Mta88 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Johnny English
Strangely I have been experiencing this same thing this last week. I have had trouble enjoying the a Ravenscroft since I bought it, then suddenly it seems to be exactly what I’m looking for. It’s caught me off guard.


I know right !

I’ll be honest I kinda secretly hated ravenscroft for a while

I didn’t think the fault was in my controller/ my playing set up

With this new amplification coupled with the rm3 action it’s night and day.

Piano sings
And it sounds so much more authentic !

It’s just lovely


Korg D1:AKG K240 MKII:Pianoteq Bechstein, Petrof, Grotrian,:Garritan CFX:Ravenscroft:Modern U:
KAYSERBURG UH 132 Royal Vertical:
1934 Danemann Upright located at MTA PHARMACY:
“Play me I’m Yours”public piano at my store smile
https://www.facebook.com/MTAPHARMACY
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Mta88 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by napilopez
Yes @Mta88, you bring up a really important issue that I was just thinking about reecently. I recently tried the new Hammer + Waves sample library and I thought it seemed unrealistic despite the fact it was measured with a robot like the VSL. but once I played it at realistic levels it felts much more authentic.

It also is particularly prominent in the bass notes, where our hearing system is less sensitive. At low volumes, bass needs to be much louder to sound balanced with higher SPLs.

As an audio nerd, I wish the high end sample library makers would provide a few technical specifics on how the samples were made. Tell us the controllers the response was calibrated to and the SPL it was mastered at so we can calibrate our own systems to it.

I really appreciate how the modern U has specific velocity curves for the VPC1 and N1X for example. Likewise, It would be good to know what a realistic volume for playing is -- especially for people who might have never or rarely played on a concert grand. You could, for example, measure the SPL at the lowest possible key velocity at the player position. and match that with your own speakers.

But I realize that's too much work for most people. In most cases, it's probably best to assume that a real grand could very well be louder than whatever volume you're playing your speakers at =]


I didn’t know the modern u included a velocity curve for the vpc1

How nice it would be if someone just brought out an affordable version of the vpc with partnerships with all the major piano vst makers to ensure the velocity curves always sync and line up properly.

I’m guessing the closest thing we have to that is the komplete kontrol sl88?


Korg D1:AKG K240 MKII:Pianoteq Bechstein, Petrof, Grotrian,:Garritan CFX:Ravenscroft:Modern U:
KAYSERBURG UH 132 Royal Vertical:
1934 Danemann Upright located at MTA PHARMACY:
“Play me I’m Yours”public piano at my store smile
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I find the selected velocity curve on my VPC1 makes a lot of difference on piano VIs. I tend to use the hard one and the Pianoteq one, depending on VI. VSL Synchron pianos are lifeless with the Pianoteq curve, as a sample. And the difference is not too much visually...

For my the Ravenscroft 275 is very playable, close to Modern U (no surprise here being both VI Labs)


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...plus some other DPs, synths, controllers and VSTs

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Hello,

Originally Posted by Craig Richards
You've raised an important point here regarding controlling the velocity of sampled pianos. I've also fallen into the trap of playing sampled pianos and not monitoring at realistic levels (ie. low volume) which results in me instinctively striking the keys harder, and triggering too many high velocity samples. It sounds harsh, unnatural and it's a dead giveaway of it being a sampled piano. This issue is more problematic with the more detailed sampled pianos like the VI Labs Ravenscroft, or VSL pianos where they have sampled from ppp to ff or fff.

Yes, this is so utterly important.

Earlier, I wrote two or three posts outlining my approach, which once I figured it out made a huge difference. Here is one of those posts:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...olume-computer-vs-piano.html#Post3134712

Cheers and happy fine-tuning,

HZ

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Originally Posted by Mta88
I think I gotta give my CFX software another try using this new strategy of caressing the keys . Loll

It’s necessary particularly with samples pianos to play with finesse I’ve realized and the sounds u get are sublime

Has anyone been able to compare noire to CFX btw?


Garritan and Noire are my favorite pianos. Noire is a little bit more drier and more mellow. There are no microphone positions in Noire. There are 2 sample sets from the CFX9 for this purpose; grand and felt. Both sample sets sound wonderfully warm and can be played extremely dynamically. The basic sound of the grand piano tends to be rather soft.


RD 2000 , Yamaha Clavinova CVP, Casio CTX 5000 with some VSTs
Favorites: VSL BI, Noire, Grandeur,Bechstein DG


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