Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
I thought since we had pages of debate on plates I thought we might enjoy discussing rims. Do thick rims as several fine piano companies believe, improve sound? I thought we’d discuss. I’ve played on the standard rim thickness pianos such as the Yamaha C series, I’ve also played a used M&H grand, and my Estonia has a thicker rim than Yamaha but not be as thick as the M&H. Now I did notice the Bosendorfer rim. Literally I could feel the whole piano responding when I played. I’ve not had the opportunity to try the Yamaha SX series with its special rim but maybe I can go into a piano store and try one when my family’s out of town.
Your thoughts?
Last edited by j&j; 08/10/2107:14 PM.
J & J Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty Casio Privia P230 At least half the waiters in Nashville play better than I
For the SX series, Yamaha claim they made the rims 30% thicker than the old S series, and also used less glue. So their research must suggest that thicker rims either give a better sound, or at least a sound closer to what they wanted. Not sure how thick the rims are on the CX line.
"For the inner and outer rims of the SX Series, Yamaha craftsmen carefully selected wood based on its acoustic characteristics. During construction, they reduced the number of glue layers, using more than 30% thicker wooden materials than those of forerunner S Series pianos, to bring out the inherent resonance of that wood. This approach has shaped the acoustic character of the SX Series, adding richness, clarity, and muscle to the bass and mid-range, while maintaining a warm and inviting overall tone."
In real terms, a well built rim will give better stability to the piano. A more massive rim made with better material will keep the piano from moving.
I had heard from multiple sources as a young piano man that the more massive rims will help to create a warmer tone as well, but frankly, I am not so sure that is true now.
I look forward to hearing from others in the industry.
In real terms, a well built rim will give better stability to the piano. A more massive rim made with better material will keep the piano from moving.
This is what I was going to ask, because I seem to remember hearing that the thickness of the rim contributed to stability.
But obviously that must not be only detail that contributes to stability (leaving aside environmental, just talking build here), since the Yamaha name is sort of synonymous with stability, but each of their models/lines differs in terms of rim. Right?
Quote
I had heard from multiple sources as a young piano man that the more massive rims will help to create a warmer tone as well, but frankly, I am not so sure that is true now.
That's interesting... Could it be that this was more true for previous piano designs than currently?
Or maybe that there are other ways to get warmth that weren't used as much in the past?
Separate from that, I have often felt that very old pianos that have been skillfully rebuilt have a richness or possibly warmth of tone that somehow I don't find in new pianos. I'm thinking, for example, of a piano I used to have lessons on, it was probably 100 y/o Steinway. That piano was basically a new Steinway inside an old Steinway case (as someone here described that S&S in the video in another post). But that piano just had a quality to it that I was convinced was due to the wood, the case, the aged fiber?? Whatever you want to call it.
The next question of course is, was my experience of the sound due a sort of "piano placebo effect" where I knew how old it was, and I knew that it had been rebuilt by a very well-regarded specialist in the area, and so I expected it sound amazing. And so it did?
Started piano June 1999. Proud owner of a Yamaha C2
Separate from that, I have often felt that very old pianos that have been skillfully rebuilt have a richness or possibly warmth of tone that somehow I don't find in new pianos. I'm thinking, for example, of a piano I used to have lessons on, it was probably 100 y/o Steinway. That piano was basically a new Steinway inside an old Steinway case (as someone here described that S&S in the video in another post). But that piano just had a quality to it that I was convinced was due to the wood, the case, the aged fiber?? Whatever you want to call it.
The next question of course is, was my experience of the sound due a sort of "piano placebo effect" where I knew how old it was, and I knew that it had been rebuilt by a very well-regarded specialist in the area, and so I expected it sound amazing. And so it did?
Since I own an S7X, I can confirm that the Acoustic Resonance Enhancement (artificial aging process) on the rims gives the piano, especially the bass and tenor, an exceptionally warm character. It was very noticeable when comparing the S7X with a CFX in the same room. The CFX had a more "conventional" bass sound.
Basically, the rim provides a foundation for the soundboard, and should basically be as rigid as possible.
Since the outer rim is NOT structural, it doesn't really need to be thick, or even present at all (Bluethner PH) However, it is essential that the inner rim to which the soundboard is attached and provides the structural integrity partially to support the string tension, is rigid and sound.
Separate from that, I have often felt that very old pianos that have been skillfully rebuilt have a richness or possibly warmth of tone that somehow I don't find in new pianos. I'm thinking, for example, of a piano I used to have lessons on, it was probably 100 y/o Steinway. That piano was basically a new Steinway inside an old Steinway case (as someone here described that S&S in the video in another post). But that piano just had a quality to it that I was convinced was due to the wood, the case, the aged fiber?? Whatever you want to call it.
The next question of course is, was my experience of the sound due a sort of "piano placebo effect" where I knew how old it was, and I knew that it had been rebuilt by a very well-regarded specialist in the area, and so I expected it sound amazing. And so it did?
Since I own an S7X, I can confirm that the Acoustic Resonance Enhancement (artificial aging process) on the rims gives the piano, especially the bass and tenor, an exceptionally warm character. It was very noticeable when comparing the S7X with a CFX in the same room. The CFX had a more "conventional" bass sound.
If the difference between those two piano was only in the rims one might be able to draw some conclusion about the ARE. But that's not the case. For starters, the pianos are not even the same size and could just be voiced differently.
I remember reading Del Fandrich saying on PW that Mason & Hamlins were overbuilt, although I don[t remember if he was referring to the rim or the full perimeter plate.
Not just the thickness, but the material counts too. A standard practice before tuning used to be to tighten the rim bolts. One day, a notice from Major Japanese Company X requested to not perform this practice on their pianos as the tightening was stripping the threads in the room, a possible destabilizing condition. I'd say the nomenclature techs used to call this type of wood, but someone will get upset.
I remember reading Del Fandrich saying on PW that Mason & Hamlins were overbuilt, although I don[t remember if he was referring to the rim or the full perimeter plate.
He was referring to the Richard W. Gertz designs that used massive rims, very thick posting and the "tension resonator". For perspective, Richard W. Getz was attempting to build a "perpetual piano", one that would not need replacing and might not ever need rebuilding (I am referring to his 1905 thoughts). Of course, he did not accomplish that, but the way he went about it was to build a piano with such incredible stability that changes in environment would not affect the piano at all.
Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Separate from that, I have often felt that very old pianos that have been skillfully rebuilt have a richness or possibly warmth of tone that somehow I don't find in new pianos. I'm thinking, for example, of a piano I used to have lessons on, it was probably 100 y/o Steinway. That piano was basically a new Steinway inside an old Steinway case (as someone here described that S&S in the video in another post). But that piano just had a quality to it that I was convinced was due to the wood, the case, the aged fiber?? Whatever you want to call it.
I personally feel that you experienced a piano that was carefully prepped and the action was worked and voiced to perfection. Even now this is not done to the fullest extent by Steinway in NY and it was certainly not done over the past couple of decades either.
New Steinways, when given the proper time and attention can perform in the same way, IMHO. Unfortunately, they are too often not given this attention.
A local restorer once told me Bosendorfer rims were once designed to reflect sound inward to the soundboard/plate, while most other manufacturers use the rim to project out. Not sure if this is still the case. I think at the time they were showing me an older Petrof Grand which used Beech on the rim.
1923 Weber New York Studio Grand; 1971 Yamaha C3 6ft 1in
Bösendorfer is the only manufacturer that includes a solid piece of spruce along the entire length of the rim. Slits are carved in this spruce allowing it to be formed in the shape of the rim. It is the same material used in their sound boards. All other manufacturers use many layers of veneers for the rim. Bösendorfer feels this process acts to increase / enhance the sound board.
Bösendorfer is the only manufacturer that includes a solid piece of spruce along the entire length of the rim. Slits are carved in this spruce allowing it to be formed in the shape of the rim. It is the same material used in their sound boards. All other manufacturers use many layers of veneers for the rim. Bösendorfer feels this process acts to increase / enhance the sound board.
I remember reading Del Fandrich saying on PW that Mason & Hamlins were overbuilt, although I don[t remember if he was referring to the rim or the full perimeter plate.
He was referring to the Richard W. Gertz designs that used massive rims, very thick posting and the "tension resonator". For perspective, Richard W. Getz was attempting to build a "perpetual piano", one that would not need replacing and might not ever need rebuilding (I am referring to his 1905 thoughts). Of course, he did not accomplish that, but the way he went about it was to build a piano with such incredible stability that changes in environment would not affect the piano at all.
Very interesting and amusing(the perpetual piano part). So I guess the pianos Del referred to are not the same as the Boston Masons or Burgett Masons?
I remember reading Del Fandrich saying on PW that Mason & Hamlins were overbuilt, although I don[t remember if he was referring to the rim or the full perimeter plate.
He was referring to the Richard W. Gertz designs that used massive rims, very thick posting and the "tension resonator". For perspective, Richard W. Getz was attempting to build a "perpetual piano", one that would not need replacing and might not ever need rebuilding (I am referring to his 1905 thoughts). Of course, he did not accomplish that, but the way he went about it was to build a piano with such incredible stability that changes in environment would not affect the piano at all.
Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Separate from that, I have often felt that very old pianos that have been skillfully rebuilt have a richness or possibly warmth of tone that somehow I don't find in new pianos. I'm thinking, for example, of a piano I used to have lessons on, it was probably 100 y/o Steinway. That piano was basically a new Steinway inside an old Steinway case (as someone here described that S&S in the video in another post). But that piano just had a quality to it that I was convinced was due to the wood, the case, the aged fiber?? Whatever you want to call it.
I personally feel that you experienced a piano that was carefully prepped and the action was worked and voiced to perfection. Even now this is not done to the fullest extent by Steinway in NY and it was certainly not done over the past couple of decades either.
New Steinways, when given the proper time and attention can perform in the same way, IMHO. Unfortunately, they are too often not given this attention.
My 1907 M & H has incredible tuning stability. In fact, my tuner recommended that I not implement any environmental technology—- that my piano would be comfortable if the house is comfortable to me. He is right.
I remember reading Del Fandrich saying on PW that Mason & Hamlins were overbuilt, although I don[t remember if he was referring to the rim or the full perimeter plate.
He was referring to the Richard W. Gertz designs that used massive rims, very thick posting and the "tension resonator". For perspective, Richard W. Getz was attempting to build a "perpetual piano", one that would not need replacing and might not ever need rebuilding (I am referring to his 1905 thoughts). Of course, he did not accomplish that, but the way he went about it was to build a piano with such incredible stability that changes in environment would not affect the piano at all.
Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Separate from that, I have often felt that very old pianos that have been skillfully rebuilt have a richness or possibly warmth of tone that somehow I don't find in new pianos. I'm thinking, for example, of a piano I used to have lessons on, it was probably 100 y/o Steinway. That piano was basically a new Steinway inside an old Steinway case (as someone here described that S&S in the video in another post). But that piano just had a quality to it that I was convinced was due to the wood, the case, the aged fiber?? Whatever you want to call it.
I personally feel that you experienced a piano that was carefully prepped and the action was worked and voiced to perfection. Even now this is not done to the fullest extent by Steinway in NY and it was certainly not done over the past couple of decades either.
New Steinways, when given the proper time and attention can perform in the same way, IMHO. Unfortunately, they are too often not given this attention.
My 1907 M & H has incredible tuning stability. In fact, my tuner recommended that I not implement any environmental technology—- that my piano would be comfortable if the house is comfortable to me. He is right.
My around 2005 M&H BB is also very stable. My piano guy told me I could have it tuned only once/year but I still have it tuned twice yearly. The only thing I do is monitor the humidity with a humdifier and air conditioner.
Separate from that, I have often felt that very old pianos that have been skillfully rebuilt have a richness or possibly warmth of tone that somehow I don't find in new pianos. I'm thinking, for example, of a piano I used to have lessons on, it was probably 100 y/o Steinway. That piano was basically a new Steinway inside an old Steinway case (as someone here described that S&S in the video in another post). But that piano just had a quality to it that I was convinced was due to the wood, the case, the aged fiber?? Whatever you want to call it.
The next question of course is, was my experience of the sound due a sort of "piano placebo effect" where I knew how old it was, and I knew that it had been rebuilt by a very well-regarded specialist in the area, and so I expected it sound amazing. And so it did?
Since I own an S7X, I can confirm that the Acoustic Resonance Enhancement (artificial aging process) on the rims gives the piano, especially the bass and tenor, an exceptionally warm character. It was very noticeable when comparing the S7X with a CFX in the same room. The CFX had a more "conventional" bass sound.
If the difference between those two piano was only in the rims one might be able to draw some conclusion about the ARE. But that's not the case. For starters, the pianos are not even the same size and could just be voiced differently.
Yamaha themselves state on their website that the artificial aging process on the rims is responsible for the warm tone. Go take it up with Yamaha. It's very obvious that the warm character of the SX series is not caused by size or voicing, but I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you. You appear on every thread to make your comment doubting the observations of other people.