2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
51 members (brennbaer, cygnusdei, bilb, Boboulus, clothearednincompo, Cutec, DaCapoDiTuttiCapi, CyberGene, Carey, 8 invisible), 564 guests, and 347 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 8,749
Silver Subscriber
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 8,749
Originally Posted by SiFi
Does NOBODY love Op. 49?


Here’s one vote, but then I also love Berceuse which has not been mentioned once. 🥲


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,570
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,570
I listed 5 each for "Greatest" and "Favorite."
If I'd done 6, the Fantaisie could have been that number on either list.

Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,322
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,322
Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by SiFi
Does NOBODY love Op. 49?


Here’s one vote, but then I also love Berceuse which has not been mentioned once. 🥲

Everyone bows down before the Barcarolle; too few give sufficient credit to the Berceuse. It's like Beethoven's Choral Fantasy vs. the last movement of the 9th Symphony . . . possibly?


SRF
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,322
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,322
Originally Posted by Mark_C
I listed 5 each for "Greatest" and "Favorite."
If I'd done 6, the Fantaisie could have been that number on either list.

Heathen. It should have been on BOTH of them!


SRF
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 11,418
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 11,418
Originally Posted by SiFi
Does NOBODY love Op. 49?
It was No. 7 on my list. smile


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,983
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,983
My list would include op. 65 and op. 43, but what do I know?


Semipro Tech
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,223
7000 Post Club Member
Online Content
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,223
Off topic, how do you remember opus numbers? For the life of me I can’t remember opus numbers. Well, I know a few of them but switching entirely to opus numbers instead of work names seems like advanced math to me 😲


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,983
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,983
Op. 65 (Cello Sonata) I remember because it has become one of my favorite works, as well as his last major work, op. 43 (Tarantella) I knew approximately, but I have the music and could look it up (there are a lot of times when we are discussing music and I go into my library and pull it out). I know a few more, like op. 49 (Fantasy).

The Tarantella was inspired by Rossini, and later, when Rossini began writing piano music, Chopin was one of his inspirations, although undoubtedly not as much as Steinway.


Semipro Tech
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,860
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,860
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Off topic, how do you remember opus numbers?
I'm reasonable at math, but my memory of numbers (and names, and faces, and......music) is like a sieve. I can't even remember π (pi) to more than ten numbers, let alone prime numbers, or even my own telephone number cry.

So, I keep confusing the Waldstein (Op.53) with the Heroic (Op.53). And so on. What possibility is there for me to remember that one is a polonaise and the other a sonata? (- until I play them, that is).

Köchel (K) numbers are more straightforward, as long as I don't mix them up with Kirkpatrick (Kk). But then, I've loved Mozart for many more years than Freddy...... wink


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 37
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 37
Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by SiFi
Does NOBODY love Op. 49?
It was No. 7 on my list. smile

It was an oversight not to prioritize it into my ten choices! What a wonderful piece: strikingly unusual even for Chopin, gratitifying to play with relatively modest technical challenge, and compelling to listen to with repetition of its appealing themes in different keys.


Joined: May 2005
Posts: 11,418
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 11,418
Originally Posted by parapiano
Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by SiFi
Does NOBODY love Op. 49?
It was No. 7 on my list. smile
It was an oversight not to prioritize it into my ten choices! What a wonderful piece: strikingly unusual even for Chopin, gratitifying to play with relatively modest technical challenge, and compelling to listen to with repetition of its appealing themes in different keys.
Had to chuckle at the highlighted above. From a technical standpoint, the Opus 49 certainly isn't the most difficult major work Chopin composed, but it isn't a walk in the park either. smile But yes, it is wonderful, unusual, gratifying to play and compelling to listen to.

Last edited by Carey; 08/08/21 11:14 AM.

Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 37
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 37
Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by parapiano
Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by SiFi
Does NOBODY love Op. 49?
It was No. 7 on my list. smile
It was an oversight not to prioritize it into my ten choices! What a wonderful piece: strikingly unusual even for Chopin, gratitifying to play with relatively modest technical challenge, and compelling to listen to with repetition of its appealing themes in different keys.
Had to chuckle at the highlighted above. From a technical standpoint, the Opus 49 certainly isn't the most difficult major work Chopin composed, but it isn't a walk in the park either. smile But yes, it is wonderful, unusual, gratifying to play and compelling to listen to.

I didn't, and wouldn't, claim it's a walk in the park. Is 'relatively modest' inaccurate then? As you acknowledge that the Fantasy 'isn't the most difficult major work Chopin composed', I'm not sure why you 'had to chuckle' unless you presume I'm really naive (not sage like the standard-bearers here). I'm not naive or even young. I will guess there seems to be a need on the part of PW elders to haze newcomers with scepticism and disdain (like, e.g., proclaiming commentary on performers' physical traits to be, umm you know, 'tasteless' and 'pointless. I don't see respect and good will being very mutual with that attitude. Communication in this medium is it's own technical challenge (!), and overly granular critism causes people to get off on the wrong foot. cool

Further to that, I do believe it instructive (constructive) to get a sense of where u think the Fantasy's technical hardships lie. For me? The octaves in contrary motion are unforgiving. That's it, so I'll maintain that the Fantasy is less difficult technically than what I consider Chopin's major (extended) pieces.

Drat. I hesitate to bring this up but but I am now wondering if people even agree about what technical challenges are and what 'major' works are. I'll stay in my own lane with defining them because I already noticed how easily people get into the weeds over parsing words and 'semantics'. However, I honestly don't know where facts (in terms of technical difficulty and major works, for example) end and opinions begin. In that other thread, after all, a member didn't know what 'attractive' means. frown It appears we do agree about wonderful, unusual, gratifying and compelling, which may be a minor miracle (relatively).

Last edited by parapiano; 08/08/21 12:10 PM.
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,570
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,570
I was going to comment on that too, if Carey hadn't first.

It isn't merely "relatively" what you said.
It's very hard technically.

The "relatively" applies only if, well, if you're not counting the hard parts. ha

And really we come across that a fair amount when people talk about how hard a piece is. Like, what about the D-flat major Nocturne? It's not that hard..... well, except for that one place. grin

I've often played the Fantaisie at the same time that I was playing the F minor Ballade, and to me they're comparably difficult -- the Fantaisie is just about as hard technically.
And the Fantaisie is "scarier," because unlike the Ballade, there are places where because of the technical difficulty you can go straight to he11 (the octave-leaping-in-opposite-directions parts and the jagged triplets parts). In the Ballade, you only fall on your face. grin

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,848
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,848
Since posters have different overall technical skill and different skill in more specific areas, it's not such a good idea to assume another person's concept of a piece's difficulty should match one's own concept, and if it doesn't they're wrong or not considering the hardest parts of the piece or not playing the piece well. It's certainly possible that parapiano plays the Fantasie very well and simply finds it easier than other posters on this thread. And I think he's correct about the "over parsing of words and sematics".

Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 37
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 37
Mark_C, I'm surprised. Yup, I mentioned those contrary octaves with treacherous landings as 'unforgiving', I think. It would worry me sick to perform this piece because of those. Practice until you can't make a mistake, I guess. smile

The sections with the ascending/descending triplets fit my hand well. I'm going through the score at the moment to verify what I actually have played recently to check, and I'm not seeing anything on the tough end of the spectrum but broken chords and arpeggios and the octaves in the sequence we mentioned and also the major-key march theme.

Opus 52 is too deep dense and formidable for me to immerse myself in. I've tried but run out of steam. There's counterpoint. Other spots where there are multiple things going on in the same hand that don't feel so comforable to me. The snappy trills in he left hand that are in the same form as in the Coda of the Allegro of Op. 11. The cadence of arpeggios that sweep up the keyboard and back down again. The coda is a whole other matter. The power of the beautiful cantabile main theme.

I like discussing the music. This is fun. I envy that you perform, certainly if like me you are neither student or performer, and yet I've never felt cut for that.

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 11,418
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 11,418
Originally Posted by parapiano
It was an oversight not to prioritize it into my ten choices! What a wonderful piece: strikingly unusual even for Chopin, gratitifying to play with relatively modest technical challenge, and compelling to listen to with repetition of its appealing themes in different keys.
Originally Posted by Carey
Had to chuckle at the highlighted above. From a technical standpoint, the Opus 49 certainly isn't the most difficult major work Chopin composed, but it isn't a walk in the park either. smile But yes, it is wonderful, unusual, gratifying to play and compelling to listen to.
I didn't, and wouldn't, claim it's a walk in the park. Is 'relatively modest' inaccurate then? As you acknowledge that the Fantasy 'isn't the most difficult major work Chopin composed', I'm not sure why you 'had to chuckle' unless you presume I'm really naive (not sage like the standard-bearers here). I'm not naive or even young. I will guess there seems to be a need on the part of PW elders to haze newcomers with scepticism and disdain (like, e.g., proclaiming commentary on performers' physical traits to be, umm you know, 'tasteless' and 'pointless. I don't see respect and good will being very mutual with that attitude. Communication in this medium is it's own technical challenge (!), and overly granular criticism causes people to get off on the wrong foot. cool
WHOA. I apologize if I ruffled your feathers. There was no malice intended, I can assure you. I took your comment at face value, and chuckled based on my own experience with the piece (I performed it reasonably well in grad school almost 50 years ago) and my awareness of how high some reputable sources have ranked its difficulty in relation Chopin's other works.

https://www.pianolibrary.org/difficulty/chopin/

Henle ranks the Opus 49 an "8" - along with the following major works:
Ballades 1, 2, and 3
Scherzos (b minor, c# minor, E Major)
Polonaise Fantasy Opus 61
Barcarolle Opus 60
Polonaise Opus 53

Bottom line - the Fantasy may be of "modest technical difficulty" for an advanced player (amateur or pro)- but a good many folks don't fall in that category. If you personally do - that's great - and more power to you. I also see that you found something I said on another thread you started offensive. Guess I'm in the dog house. Perhaps we can start fresh and be friends. I'd like that. thumb

Quote
Further to that, I do believe it instructive (constructive) to get a sense of where u think the Fantasy's technical hardships lie. For me? The octaves in contrary motion are unforgiving. That's it, so I'll maintain that the Fantasy is less difficult technically than what I consider Chopin's major (extended) pieces.
Technical challenges can sometimes vary from person to person. Personally I had no trouble with the octaves. A female pianist I was dating at the time who had small hands found the octaves difficult - even though she could otherwise play circles around me.

Quote
Drat. I hesitate to bring this up but but I am now wondering if people even agree about what technical challenges are and what 'major' works are. I'll stay in my own lane with defining them because I already noticed how easily people get into the weeds over parsing words and 'semantics'. However, I honestly don't know where facts (in terms of technical difficulty and major works, for example) end and opinions begin. In that other thread, after all, a member didn't know what 'attractive' means. frown It appears we do agree about wonderful, unusual, gratifying and compelling, which may be a minor miracle (relatively).
Perhaps so (relatively). grin


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,570
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,570
Originally Posted by Carey
Personally I had no trouble with the octaves.

I feel like asking "How adventurously did you play them?" but let's not get personal. ha
So, I'll just say:

It depends how one plays them.
Often those passages are played in a way that I would call tame, careful -- taking as much time as needed to make sure you get those octaves that are at the outer margins, especially the last one. And then, sure, it's not that hard.

I think they should sort of explode. And that's when they become hard, and perhaps terrifying, like a highwire without a safety net.
And then, well, I would be surprised if they're not hard for virtually everybody.

About the "jagged triplets": The really hard part is the latter part of each sequence, where you have the moving rolled chords in the left hand together with the triplet figure in the right hand.
Whoever can get those whole things confidently and reliably, without sacrificing the tempo and momentum -- I mean both hands -- more power to you.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,848
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,848
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Carey
Personally I had no trouble with the octaves.

I feel like asking "How adventurously did you play them?" but let's not get personal. ha
So, I'll just say:

It depends how one plays them.
Often those passages are played in a way that I would call tame, careful -- taking as much time as needed to make sure you get those octaves that are at the outer margins, especially the last one. And then, sure, it's not that hard.

I think they should sort of explode. And that's when they become hard, and perhaps terrifying, like a highwire without a safety net.
And then, well, I would be surprised if they're not hard for virtually everybody.

About the "jagged triplets": The really hard part is the latter part of each sequence, where you have the moving rolled chords in the left hand together with the triplet figure in the right hand.
Whoever can get those whole things confidently and reliably, without sacrificing the tempo and momentum -- I mean both hands -- more power to you.
You often assume what's hard for you must be equally hard for everyone else or if they say otherwise that they're just playing the passage more slowly. You must be aware that some pianists, and I don't just mean a few of the great technicians, could achieve a higher technical level on these pieces in a month than you have after many years.

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 11,418
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 11,418
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Carey
Personally I had no trouble with the octaves.

I feel like asking "How adventurously did you play them?" but let's not get personal. ha
So, I'll just say:

It depends how one plays them.
Often those passages are played in a way that I would call tame, careful -- taking as much time as needed to make sure you get those octaves that are at the outer margins, especially the last one. And then, sure, it's not that hard.

I think they should sort of explode. And that's when they become hard, and perhaps terrifying, like a highwire without a safety net.
And then, well, I would be surprised if they're not hard for virtually everybody.
I just tried the octaves (cold) up to speed. It wasn't pretty. ha


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,570
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,570
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
You often assume what's hard for you must be equally hard for everyone else....

I don't.
If you go back and read carefully what I said, you'll see.

Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Best piano under 3600$ / 3000€
by PaJaC - 09/21/21 02:11 AM
FP-90 volume problems
by choppin - 09/20/21 10:15 PM
Pictures at an Exhibition: Yuking Chou Brandenburgh
by FrankCox - 09/20/21 08:16 PM
Roland FP30 Headphone/Line out hiss?
by Raf702 - 09/20/21 06:56 PM
Keybeds Korg SV2 vs D1
by David Izquierdo - 09/20/21 06:07 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics209,216
Posts3,133,902
Members102,783
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5