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You mean ... a deliberate bug?

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It is fundamental to software engineering that you test to requirements. A bug is when the software fails to meet the requirements.

The instrument in question is a piano. The notes for which virtual technician features are not supported are not piano notes. There is no piano music that uses them. That you can produce the sound of these notes at all for the piano sounds is a bonus.

I could make a list of extra features I would want if the extra cost of development, extra cost for storage to store the extra code, etc. were to be passed through to the cost of the instrument, and it would be passed through. I can say with certainty that better support for notes outside the full range of a piano would not be on the list of features I would want to pay for. It would be a useless feature without music that required those notes.

I would not play or compose piano music that could not be played on a standard piano.

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Keep in mind that customers judge by their own requirements.
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
It is fundamental to software engineering that you test to requirements.

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See, we need an agile piano.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Keep in mind that customers judge by their own requirements.
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
It is fundamental to software engineering that you test to requirements.

Yes. I'm sure there also are customers unhappy that it does not sound good or like a violin when they play the A0 key on a digital piano with a sampled violin patch.

I likely would be happier if all the pianos other than the SK-EX in my MP7SE were left out and additional acoustic instrument samples were included in their place. That does not make the absence of additional acoustic instrument samples a bug.

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Originally Posted by Beansparrow
See, we need an agile piano.

Start with a barebones digital piano you buy, and add features monthly with firmware releases?

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Originally Posted by Purdy
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P.S.: it would be interesting to know what happens with a similar function in DPs from other brands, but anyway to me this issue is a "design" bug, meaning that the designer didn't foresee the ability to use key-tranpose + per-key settings, so the newly generated notes from the key-transpose actually are not customizable.

It’s an interesting problem but when you transpose you’ve created a note(s) that doesn’t exist on a 88 key piano and thus is not played.
Are you saying that we should never play notes out of the range A0-C8 ? Then why the "designer" allowed us to play them when you do a key-transpose? Clearly the designer allowed them to be played and heard, so IMHO these notes should be customizable too, as all the others. And to be honest, there are some acoustic pianos with more than 88 keys (see the Boesendorfer Imperial, with 97 keys, or the Stuart-&-Son with 108 keys!). And digial pianos are not just for "piano" sounds. Often these instruments offer a great variety of synthesized sounds, so that the user could experiment with new sounds.
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Your looking for a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.
No, I was looking to use my digital instrument by using the available options + my imagination to get something in such a way that probably no many thought about it. In doing that I encountered an unexpected (at least to me) software issue that limited what I could do.
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Even transposing itself is likely a not often used feature in these more expensive digital pianos.

If you are looking for more control of the sound engine, I think that is very reasonable, and the better vst pianos have options that you don’t have built into digital pianos.
Ok, the transpose function maybe is not much used and some VST piano engines could offer more customizing options (not always) compared to internal piano engines, but these are not reasons to justify a software issue.
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Again i would say putting efforts into adding more control would be a better use of resources than supporting a very fringe case that might only be used by one person.
Well, it's just because you have not heard how my DP sounds when you do what I proposed in this procedure here... smile
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If a company implemented your proposed solution would you sell your existing piano and buy it?
Yes, it's possible (if within my budget). Honestly when I bought my CN37 I didn't know of many things about piano engines. Now, considering what I know and what are my needs (I like very much to customize sounds, fiddling with the options), probably I would have bought an MP7SE (the ability to layer up to 4 sounds with different VT settings and effects is really fantastic, IMHO).
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But it is an interesting issue and thanks for bringing it up.
Thanks. wink

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
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Mmmh... Do you work as a Kawai's lawyer? grin
Yes, I'm a software developer but in this case I'm a customer, so, sorry if I'm more interested in "my" requirements, more than the requirements of the manufacturer... And to be honest, I don't know the designer's specs (I don't think they are public!), so I can only speak for "my" requirements, as a customer.
Sure, but lack of compliance with your requirements is not the definition of a bug.
Sure, but this is definitely a case of software bug, because if the designer didn't want to let you play out of the range A0-C8 then you should hear no note played when you play out of this range with key-transpose set to values other than 0. Instead you can hear these extra notes, so to me it's one of the following:

1) the ability to play notes out of the A0-C8 range was planned by the designer, but he/she didn't foresee the problems when you use transpose + per-key settings. => BUG;

2) the designer didn't planned to let the user play notes out of the A0-C8 range when you use the key-transpose function. But actually they could be played and heard. => BUG.

So, in both the cases, there is something wrong. It's a bug. smile

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You sound like you would be happier if you could not play the notes outside the standard 88 so that the virtual technician would behave uniformly. Playing the extra notes are a bonus. This is a digital piano, not a synthesizer. You maybe would find a Yamaha MoDX8 to be more satisfactory.

Last I checked, Kawai digital pianos don't have Bosendorfer Imperial patches. Should Yamaha digital piano owners need to pay for this feature for their Imperial patches?

The purpose of the transpose function is a musical one to support accompanying others in a key different from the one in which you learned a piece. It fulfills that objective. Perhaps the feature you want could be added to the amateur-oriented Kawai digital pianos, and development and/or extra hardware cost for functionality in more pro-oriented keyboards can be directed to features useful for performance or recording.

How much more would you have been willing to pay for your piano to have the implementatuon of key transpose that you propose?

Last edited by Sweelinck; 08/04/21 12:19 PM.
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The 'Tempest in a Teapot' that Nostradamus foretold lives!

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
You sound like you would be happier if you could not play the notes outside the standard 88 so that the virtual technician would behave uniformly.
I never said that. I just used a logical reasoning to prove that that this is a bug, not a design choice.
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Playing the extra notes are a bonus. This is a digital piano, not a synthesizer.
Maybe you don't know, but my CN37 is a digital instrument with 352(!) sounds and with many options to make some customizations, layering and splitting. Most of the options (like the per-key tuning) work even on non-piano sound patches. So, it's true that is not a synthesizer, but it's not your basic digital piano (like an ES110, P125, FP30, etc.).
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You maybe would find a Yamaha MoDX8 to be more satisfactory.
Maybe, but that's not the point. The point is that I found a bug in my DP. I reported it to get some feedback from other users and eventually from Kawai James. Nothing more. Of course, I understand that this bug is not "severe" and most people will never notice its presence. However it's a bug, and I reported it. That's all! Kawai James reply was very kind, honest and professional. He didn't try to convince me that this is not a bug just because my use case is a rare one or because he is employed by Kawai.
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Last I checked, Kawai digital pianos don't have Bosendorfer Imperial patches.
The Mellow Grand variation of the SK-EX is a very Bosendorfer-like sound. Even more after my "timbre-changer" mod.
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Should Yamaha digital piano owners need to pay for this feature for their Imperial patches?
I don't know what happens with Yamaha instruments. It would be interesting to know. But last time I checked a Yamaha DPs user's manual (P515) it didn't have per-key settings for fine-tuning so it's likely they couldn't have this issue...
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[...]How much more would you have been willing to pay for your piano to have the implementatuon of key transpose that you propose?
The customer should not pay a penny to get a software bug fixed (of course if the product involved is still in production).

Anyway I know at 99% this issue will never be fixed, because the rarity of my use case, and I accept this... I just suggested a possible solution for future DP models so that the developers should do very little modifications to the current implementations (if they are willing to fix it for future models).

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We will just have to disagree that it is established that it is a bug (it may be). Your proposed "fix" was to develop additional, presumably not yet developed code.

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Yamaha does offer per note tuning and volume not sure which models and from the look of the app.

It might be possible to tune outside of the 88 keys as they show more than 88 keys.

Roland also allows per note tuning volume and character but only shows 88 keys in the app,

I’m away from my keyboard so can’t test how they deal with transposed tuning.


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And I just looked at kawai’s virtual technician app and it shows the keyboard from c-1 to past c9 so Kawai may also support tuning beyond the 88 notes at least in some models


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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by Beansparrow
See, we need an agile piano.

Start with a barebones digital piano you buy, and add features monthly with firmware releases?

Or more of a business model that supports frequent delivery of bug fixes, new features or changes. if pianos go the way of post-iPhone mobile phones with fixed yearly releases and long term updates for older models, who knows how that would work out. Just a random thought that floated by when I ought to be working.

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Kawai, Yamaha, Roland apps and per note tuning

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
[...]Your proposed "fix" was to develop additional, presumably not yet developed code.
Well, of course the developer has to do some coding to fix an issue... This is part of his work. And, honestly, this shouldn't be a concern for the customer.

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Originally Posted by Purdy
Kawai, Yamaha, Roland apps and per note tuning

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
That's interesting but I didn't understand if these pictures mean that the tuning of out-of-range notes works or not... In particular, regarding the Kawai app, did you check that it really works in changing the tuning of the out-of-range octaves? If it works, then this means that the function was already planned and developed and the issue is just in the User Interface on the display panel of the instrument...

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My suggestion is to try the Kawai virtual technician app yourself.

No, I don’t own a Kawai keyboard and don’t own a Yamaha keyboard that supports this feature.


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Unfortunately only the iPad version of that app is compatible with the CN37 (and I don't have an iPad). The Android version inexplicably works only from the CN39 above, so I cannot try it. The tale of mystery continues...

Maybe someone with a CN39/DG30/CA59/ES920 (or previous models + iPad) could do a test?

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