2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
97 members (brdwyguy, 36251, anotherscott, Andrew_G, AllThingsKeyboard, Augustina, 20 invisible), 1,646 guests, and 408 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Sebs #3143015 08/03/21 11:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,034
Gold Subscriber
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,034
I think a first requirement to becoming proficient at both classical and pop is that you have to enjoy both--you need a driving interest in both genres. There are a fair number of classical players who dismiss pop, and many pop players who couldn't care less about classical, and that may go a long to explaining why few pianist do both equally well.

The potential may be there to be proficient in both, but in actual practice it's hard to name names of pianists who would generally be agreed play each equally well. Rarer still are pianists who are trained from the very beginning in both. Most typical, it seems, is training in classical (usually as a child) and then taking up pop and/or jazz on the side and eventually moving to that exclusively.

Again, in theory both genres should be possible, but in practice it doesn't often happen. One genre dominates over the other. Perhaps it's a combination of time and mental constraints along with having or not a driving interest in both simultaneously.


[Linked Image]
Yamaha C3X
In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Moo :) #3143017 08/03/21 11:53 AM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 995
S
Sebs Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 995
Thanks for the replies, all! There's a lot of replies here for me take in and think on.

While I know they're two distinct areas of study, my reason for it is to add some additional fun and engagement. I would imagine any type of piano study would be good. However, I could see it being a little overwhelming or one lesson lacking and not getting as much attention. It's something I want to consider and not just jump into and maybe I'm better off to just keep my small side projects on my own for "additional fun" and instead of second piano teacher maybe I should learn to sing. There's so many fun things we can do with music and it can overwhelming.

Sebs #3143021 08/03/21 12:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,087
M
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,087
Sebs I didnt really understand the issue. Does your current teacher refuse to teach classical music and therefore to do this you have to have a second teacher ? It is a good idea to play a variety of music but I am really unclear on the issue. I think you said you were a beginner in a thread so I am really unclear why your teacher cannot do both.

Sebs #3143025 08/03/21 12:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,408
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,408
Originally Posted by Moo :)
I think you said you were a beginner in a thread so I am really unclear why your teacher cannot do both.
You repeat this statement in every post. What is it based on? Are there educational institutions that train professional teachers in both fields? In my country, this does not exist at all!

Stubbie #3143038 08/03/21 12:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 545
R
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 545
Originally Posted by Stubbie
The potential may be there to be proficient in both, but in actual practice it's hard to name names of pianists who would generally be agreed play each equally well. Rarer still are pianists who are trained from the very beginning in both. Most typical, it seems, is training in classical (usually as a child) and then taking up pop and/or jazz on the side and eventually moving to that exclusively.
I think it also often happens that they were exposed to multiple genres as a young child, and in tandem with a good ear and musical memory, they already "know" the songs/pieces/style, just not the actual notes.

Nahum #3143043 08/03/21 12:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,087
M
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,087
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Moo :)
I think you said you were a beginner in a thread so I am really unclear why your teacher cannot do both.
You repeat this statement in every post. What is it based on? Are there educational institutions that train professional teachers in both fields? In my country, this does not exist at all!

I am not sure the country of the OP. In Uk we have an exam based system which is probably odd compared to other countries. I know the candian have there system. Elton John, for example, was a product of this system before becoming a rock star.

"GM: What was your chosen instrument?

DM: Violin. And Elton was piano. As I recall, he was very highly-qualified before he got there. I went in at Grade 4 level, and then did Grade 5 and 6 while there, but didn’t cover myself in glory! Elton had Grade 8 piano before he got there."

https://www.eltonjohnworld.com/index.php/archives/old-news-special/3682-backstageschoolreportteena

Perhaps the exam board systems here are a little old fashioned (mostly white men, not much living composers or women or music of other countries) and could be reformed to reflect new music. I am confused by the distinction between 'pop teacher' and 'classical teacher' as the implication here is that one teacher will teach only one type of music but of course it could be different in other countries.

Nahum #3143057 08/03/21 01:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,935
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,935
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Moo :)
I think you said you were a beginner in a thread so I am really unclear why your teacher cannot do both.
You repeat this statement in every post. What is it based on? Are there educational institutions that train professional teachers in both fields? In my country, this does not exist at all!

My teacher has a PhD in piano... actually, I can't remember if it's in piano pedagogy or piano performance. But I'm pretty sure most of his formal studies have been classically oriented. And he has a lot students that he guides through the standard piano literature (i.e., classical), they participate (and do quite well) in piano competitions and pass auditions for university music programs etc.

He also teaches me (and I'm far from being a beginning btw), and we work on pieces that include classical and contemporary (e.g., George Winston or Einaudi) as well as jazz and blues styles. He teaches improvising as well.

This is just one teacher of course, but the point is, he can do both -- he already does.

Just fyi.

Last edited by ShiroKuro; 08/03/21 01:39 PM.

Started piano June 1999.
Proud owner of a Yamaha C2

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Sebs #3143058 08/03/21 01:45 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 8,791
Silver Subscriber
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 8,791
I have never had a classical piano teacher who taught the elements of pop music which should include using a lead sheet, improvisation, heavy theory etc. Were they capable, I have no idea. I assume you are playing pop from a score, which is only a minor fraction of good pop training.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Sebs #3143066 08/03/21 02:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,034
Gold Subscriber
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,034
My teacher has a PhD in piano performance, teaches music theory and aural training and sight-singing classes, and teaches applied piano (one-on-one piano lessons). In those roles, she doesn't teach any pop music (nor children or beginners, for that matter). She has a few students on the side, and as I recall she mentioned some of them wanting to learn some Beatles tunes, for example. She is certainly capable of teaching the various genres, but is in the position of not having to teach them if she doesn't want to.

I think most classical teachers could teach both pop and classical, but for the beginner the early lessons would look an awful lot like classical lessons.


[Linked Image]
Yamaha C3X
In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams

Sebs #3143067 08/03/21 02:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,408
N
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,408
Originally Posted by dogperson
I assume you are playing pop from a score, which is only a minor fraction of good pop training.
Minor fraction, and not the most important one.

Originally Posted by Stubbie
I think most classical teachers could teach both pop and classical, but for the beginner the early lessons would look an awful lot like classical lessons.
Based on what? Are you a teacher?

Last edited by Nahum; 08/03/21 02:21 PM.
ShiroKuro #3143071 08/03/21 02:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 995
S
Sebs Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 995
Originally Posted by Moo :)
Sebs I didnt really understand the issue. Does your current teacher refuse to teach classical music and therefore to do this you have to have a second teacher ? It is a good idea to play a variety of music but I am really unclear on the issue. I think you said you were a beginner in a thread so I am really unclear why your teacher cannot do both.

There are no issues here. It's just simply to learn more, have a variety, venture out a bit, meet a new teacher, learn some extra stuff. I still plan to stick with my current teacher as I love my lessons and this aligns with my goals.

Originally Posted by dogperson
I have never had a classical piano teacher who taught the elements of pop music which should include using a lead sheet, improvisation, heavy theory etc. Were they capable, I have no idea. I assume you are playing pop from a score, which is only a minor fraction of good pop training.

I agree, it's two very distinct schools of teaching. Sure a classical teacher can help you learn a pop arrangment from musicnotes.com but that's not what I learn with my pop teacher it's far more than that. We use lead sheets and study what to apply based on the genre, style, etc. and what you want to do with the sheet.


Originally Posted by Stubbie
I think most classical teachers could teach both pop and classical, but for the beginner the early lessons would look an awful lot like classical lessons.

I disagree with this. I would assume most classical teachers don't know nearly as much as my pop teacher does when it comes to pop, and they most likely don't care to or claim to. I would also say he doesnt know nearly as much of the classical as those classical teachers do when it comes to classical and he would not attempt to teach it. My pop lessons don't look anything like classical lessons.

Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by Moo :)
I think you said you were a beginner in a thread so I am really unclear why your teacher cannot do both.
You repeat this statement in every post. What is it based on? Are there educational institutions that train professional teachers in both fields? In my country, this does not exist at all!

My teacher has a PhD in piano... actually, I can't remember if it's in piano pedagogy or piano performance. But I'm pretty sure most of his formal studies have been classically oriented. And he has a lot students that he guides through the standard piano literature (i.e., classical), they participate (and do quite well) in piano competitions and pass auditions for university music programs etc.

He also teaches me (and I'm far from being a beginning btw), and we work on pieces that include classical and contemporary (e.g., George Winston or Einaudi) as well as jazz and blues styles. He teaches improvising as well.

This is just one teacher of course, but the point is, he can do both -- he already does.

Just fyi.

BTW I love George Winston. Did you ever play the variation on Canon? I know we chatted about that a while back....

Last edited by Sebs; 08/03/21 02:36 PM.
Sebs #3143084 08/03/21 03:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,935
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,935
Quote
I think most classical teachers could teach both pop and classical

In my experience of taking lessons, I don't think this is actually true. Most classical teachers are not likely to be able to teach improvising, blues scales, lead sheet playing etc.


Started piano June 1999.
Proud owner of a Yamaha C2

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
ShiroKuro #3143112 08/03/21 04:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,034
Gold Subscriber
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,034
Originally Posted by Sebs
Originally Posted by Stubbie
I think most classical teachers could teach both pop and classical, but for the beginner the early lessons would look an awful lot like classical lessons.

I disagree with this. I would assume most classical teachers don't know nearly as much as my pop teacher does when it comes to pop, and they most likely don't care to or claim to. I would also say he doesnt know nearly as much of the classical as those classical teachers do when it comes to classical and he would not attempt to teach it. My pop lessons don't look anything like classical lessons.


Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Quote
I think most classical teachers could teach both pop and classical

In my experience of taking lessons, I don't think this is actually true. Most classical teachers are not likely to be able to teach improvising, blues scales, lead sheet playing etc.

Do you think they are incapable of teaching both (grasping and teaching the concepts) or that they choose not to do both?

I think most teachers chose one over the other due to preference for the genre.


[Linked Image]
Yamaha C3X
In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams

Sebs #3143113 08/03/21 04:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,087
M
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 2,087
I see. Thank you for clarifying the differences. I would suggest a trial lesson with a new teacher to give a taster of classical would give you opportunity to see if it works. I am sure a mixture of styles is great. I think it is possible with two teachers and could work well or could be a disaster. It would be interesting to try and feedback. Good luck !

Sebs #3143116 08/03/21 04:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,893
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,893
Originally Posted by Sebs
instead of second piano teacher maybe I should learn to sing.
thumb
Personally, I'm surprised that you haven't already started singing.
Say "pop music" to anyone, and they'd automatically think of a singer or group of singers in a band, not a pianist (solo or otherwise).

This:


.....rather than this wink :


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Sebs #3143123 08/03/21 04:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,034
Gold Subscriber
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,034
Just to be clear--I'm not talking about jazz, only classical and pop. Jazz is a distinct genre. Of course everything has been blended at some point or another, but that's another topic....


[Linked Image]
Yamaha C3X
In summer, the song sings itself. --William Carlos Williams

Sebs #3143137 08/03/21 05:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 545
R
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 545
Originally Posted by Sebs
Originally Posted by Stubbie
I think most classical teachers could teach both pop and classical, but for the beginner the early lessons would look an awful lot like classical lessons.

I disagree with this. I would assume most classical teachers don't know nearly as much as my pop teacher does when it comes to pop, and they most likely don't care to or claim to. I would also say he doesnt know nearly as much of the classical as those classical teachers do when it comes to classical and he would not attempt to teach it. My pop lessons don't look anything like classical lessons.
I think we need to define what a beginner means here. If you are a very new beginner, I would assume that you can't play your scales at 70 bpm, play a melody vs accompaniment (such as Alberti bass or a chord pattern), still don't know even basic major scales such as A major fluently (basic theory), don't know basic hand positioning, can't play a tune by ear, etc. If you can do most of these things already, then I think classical and pop music will diverge. Supposing you have been learning for a year or two, you may already be able to do all of the things mentioned above. I also know a few people for whom this level of coordination and music theory knowledge was their baseline. Either way, I think that with these skills, you should be able to play maybe around ~grade 3 material with some effort, albeit a bit shoddily. In that case, I think that the skills you require will diverge for pop and classical, or rather, you might be better served learning things in a different order.

If you play classical at a high level, pop should mostly be a breeze technique-wise. The thing is that certain things will be taught later on in classical training. For example, if you want to play a stride accompaniment, it's probably better to practice a lot and knock it out in a year, rather than waiting for Chopin waltzes, which are at about grade 7. Fast left hand arpeggios are another one. However, it's probably better to focus on standard fast left hand arpeggios if you want to learn pop arrangements, since they will use them all the time, whereas even intermediate classical repertoire seldom uses them (advanced classical repertoire is a different beast -- everything else will seem easy if you can conquer Liszt transcendental etudes lol). You will also need to be better with syncopation and groove than your classical counterparts.

All in all, if you really want to, I don't see why not. If you're an adult, you can often pick up theory quicker than children, which will give you a head start in heavily chord-dominated pop styles.

Stubbie #3143138 08/03/21 06:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 545
R
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 545
Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by Sebs
Originally Posted by Stubbie
I think most classical teachers could teach both pop and classical, but for the beginner the early lessons would look an awful lot like classical lessons.

I disagree with this. I would assume most classical teachers don't know nearly as much as my pop teacher does when it comes to pop, and they most likely don't care to or claim to. I would also say he doesnt know nearly as much of the classical as those classical teachers do when it comes to classical and he would not attempt to teach it. My pop lessons don't look anything like classical lessons.


Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Quote
I think most classical teachers could teach both pop and classical

In my experience of taking lessons, I don't think this is actually true. Most classical teachers are not likely to be able to teach improvising, blues scales, lead sheet playing etc.

Do you think they are incapable of teaching both (grasping and teaching the concepts) or that they choose not to do both?

I think most teachers chose one over the other due to preference for the genre.
I would guess that they are not interested, for the most part. Also, most of them are afraid of improvising. Improvisation requires you to think in a different way, and not everyone is comfortable with it. Of course, a piano DMA should ideally be able to improvise to an extent as it's part of basic musicality, but they often don't learn it because they are averse to it.

Again, what do you mean by "teaching"? Of course, any musician worth their salt will be able to improvise or figure out a blues scale or lead sheet from a theoretical standpoint. However, they wouldn't feel comfortable teaching it, because there is a lot more to it than just the definition of a C maj9 chord or something. I may not be comfortable teaching playing from lead sheets, because I don't know how to improvise over chords in a jazz style! And anyway, learning to read classical music will teach you to read the notes, and you can look up the funky chords to see what they mean. What's there to teach in that?

Sebs #3143151 08/03/21 06:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,935
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,935
Originally Posted by Stubbie
Do you think they are incapable of teaching both (grasping and teaching the concepts) or that they choose not to do both?

Definitely not due to incapability, just more due to lack of preparation, and also for some, probably because they play classical, and they teach classical; they don't play from lead sheets themselves, they don't play pop music, so it would be pretty hard to teach that.

Quote
I think most teachers chose one over the other due to preference for the genre.

I think this is the main reason.

Separate from pop, lead sheet playing and jazz styles, a lot of other, non-classical music can easily be taught by someone with classical training. Here I'm thinking of Einaudi, Nevue, Winston etc.


Started piano June 1999.
Proud owner of a Yamaha C2

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Sebs #3143227 08/04/21 12:35 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,373
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,373
When I was actually in China i had 2 teachers. Both were Sichuanese women. One was a married woman in her thirties the other just out of conservatory. The youngster was the better pianist but the older was a more experienced teacher.

I needed the wisdom of Solomon. Each anniversary of me starting lessons I would give them a basket of fruit each. I went to considerable pains to ensure that the baskets were identical. Once I painted the grand stave on the whiteboard for one of them. I immediately made the same offer to the other.


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
Page 2 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  BB Player 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Garritan with Sibelius "sound set" ?
by RinTin - 09/28/21 03:13 PM
help teaching an autistic child
by sheilaju - 09/28/21 02:33 PM
Old Kawai MP6
by johan d - 09/28/21 02:04 PM
Half Pedaling reality check
by Dore - 09/28/21 12:47 PM
Confused.
by Cutec - 09/28/21 10:43 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Our Free Newsletter for Piano Lovers!
The summer edition of our free newsletter
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics209,335
Posts3,135,868
Members102,845
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5