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Is he even still doing it? Last I saw he had started making videos about "America's backroads".

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Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Jethro, can you bring some science to the topic? What experience do you have with piano castings?
Or are you pouring some now at the beach?
Sure! How about taking brand new pianos strings wrap them around their termination points on a V-pro plate and a sand casted plate and put several tons of tension on them until they break. The hypothesis being that the ones wrapped around the V-pro plate should theoretically break sooner or more often given the abrasive nature of the surface. Repeat the process until you have enough controlled and random trials to show their is indeed a statistical significance to what you are theorizing. It's that simple. Without such trials you are going by only what you think you are seeing and not what might actually be happening. Ie. you might just be talking out of your ass and someone as educated and respected as you shouldn't be doing that.

A hypothesis is a proposed explanation (e.g. "if this then that"). "Theoretically," essentially means "maybe it will, maybe it won't." So, you ought not include the word "theoretically" in a hypothesis ( e.g. not "if this then theoretically that"). That's actually exactly the distinction that a well-defined experiment ought to be concretely determining.

Although it's poorly constructed, you word choice belies your bias and contempt, as does ending by repeating your earlier insult. A bonafide scientist should be unbiased, and dispassionate.

Frankly, the hasty "experiment" doesn't even indicate that you truly grasp the issue under discussion, let alone test for it. You're throwing around buzz words like "random" and "controlled," but you don't seem to account for those characteristics.

You're welcome to revise and resubmit. wink

(On a tangential note, )

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should be sure that they're not doing the same. thumb


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James is obviously sincere in his love of music and the piano.He has been interested almost all of his life.I am always amazed at the number of many people who are delighted with him.One elderly woman I know just loves his piano delmmonstrations.As for making money with his interest why not? I would rather watch him than someone playing dreadfully with the sustain pedal constantly depressed



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Originally Posted by Sonepica
Is he even still doing it? Last I saw he had started making videos about "America's backroads".


He’s posted two piano videos in the last two weeks,


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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Originally Posted by Sonepica
Perhaps we should conclude this thread by agreeing that Sonepica was right about everything.

See you guys at the next wet sand vs V pro casting thread!
Of course you are the winner Sonepica, who would doubt that!😉


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I hope that someone is declared a winner after 284 posts.


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"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Reminds me of the chorus of a Carly Simon song from 1972...


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Originally Posted by tre corda
James is obviously sincere in his love of music and the piano.He has been interested almost all of his life.I am always amazed at the number of many people who are delighted with him.One elderly woman I know just loves his piano delmmonstrations.As for making money with his interest why not? I would rather watch him than someone playing dreadfully with the sustain pedal constantly depressed



http://aloveofmusic.com/
I’m beginning to warm up to him. I can never dislike someone with a passion for the piano and just wants to share his ideas. Very enthusiastic in his videos. I don’t necessarily agree with everything he says but some of his videos can be entertaining.


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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Jethro, can you bring some science to the topic? What experience do you have with piano castings?
Or are you pouring some now at the beach?
Sure! How about taking brand new pianos strings wrap them around their termination points on a V-pro plate and a sand casted plate and put several tons of tension on them until they break. The hypothesis being that the ones wrapped around the V-pro plate should theoretically break sooner or more often given the abrasive nature of the surface. Repeat the process until you have enough controlled and random trials to show their is indeed a statistical significance to what you are theorizing. It's that simple. Without such trials you are going by only what you think you are seeing and not what might actually be happening. Ie. you might just be talking out of your ass and someone as educated and respected as you shouldn't be doing that.

A hypothesis is a proposed explanation (e.g. "if this then that"). "Theoretically," essentially means "maybe it will, maybe it won't." So, you ought not include the word "theoretically" in a hypothesis ( e.g. not "if this then theoretically that"). That's actually exactly the distinction that a well-defined experiment ought to be concretely determining.

Although it's poorly constructed, you word choice belies your bias and contempt, as does ending by repeating your earlier insult. A bonafide scientist should be unbiased, and dispassionate.

Frankly, the hasty "experiment" doesn't even indicate that you truly grasp the issue under discussion, let alone test for it. You're throwing around buzz words like "random" and "controlled," but you don't seem to account for those characteristics.

You're welcome to revise and resubmit. wink

(On a tangential note, )

Those who repeatedly accuse others of talking out of their anal orifice,
should be sure that they're not doing the same. thumb
Blah blah blah ….. blah blah.


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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Reminds me of the chorus of a Carly Simon song from 1972...

The one with Mick Jagger on backing vocals? This whole forum is going that way!


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Perhaps you do better experimental work in the sandbox. I do mine at the wave table of life where I test hypotheses against reality. "Random" is to be eliminated as much as possible.

After nearly 50 years of inspecting and reshaping V-bars; my hand has a very good feel for what the plate metal is like. Many of these pianos I have reshaped V-bars on I have been maintaining for this whole time too. No problems with string buzzes/noises or breakage. In fact I have had a total of three strings break out of the many thousands I have installed over my career and one of those was a wound string.

My hypotheses are all within the bounds of known material science and vibratory modes behavior. I employ Occam's razor.


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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Perhaps you do better experimental work in the sandbox. I do mine at the wave table of life where I test hypotheses against reality. "Random" is to be eliminated as much as possible.

After nearly 50 years of inspecting and reshaping V-bars; my hand has a very good feel for what the plate metal is like. Many of these pianos I have reshaped V-bars on I have been maintaining for this whole time too. No problems with string buzzes/noises or breakage. In fact I have had a total of three strings break out of the many thousands I have installed over my career and one of those was a wound string.

My hypotheses are all within the bounds of known material science and vibratory modes behavior. I employ Occam's razor.

And somehow you think that your experience differs from others who do not worry about the stuff you worry about.


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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Perhaps you do better experimental work in the sandbox. I do mine at the wave table of life where I test hypotheses against reality. "Random" is to be eliminated as much as possible.

After nearly 50 years of inspecting and reshaping V-bars; my hand has a very good feel for what the plate metal is like. Many of these pianos I have reshaped V-bars on I have been maintaining for this whole time too. No problems with string buzzes/noises or breakage. In fact I have had a total of three strings break out of the many thousands I have installed over my career and one of those was a wound string.

My hypotheses are all within the bounds of known material science and vibratory modes behavior. I employ Occam's razor.
There is very little differentiating on how you draw your conclusions compared to how members of the flat earth society draw theirs.

This is not to say that what you are concluding may not be true. It is interesting and may be useful to the manufacturing of pianos, but you have to test it first before you claim it be fact. Everything makes sense to the flat earthers because their conclusions seem so obvious but science says otherwise.

The fundamental concept behind Occam's razor is that of two competing theories, the simpler explanation of an entity is to be preferred. I'm not a piano rebuilder but it would seem to me that the reason why piano strings break is simply because they have been fatigued beyond their breaking point either due to corrosion or overuse. Your proposition that strings break because molecular sized razors of diamond hardness are cutting into them is hardly the simpler explanation of the two.

Last edited by Jethro; 08/03/21 12:54 PM.

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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Perhaps you do better experimental work in the sandbox. I do mine at the wave table of life where I test hypotheses against reality. "Random" is to be eliminated as much as possible.

After nearly 50 years of inspecting and reshaping V-bars; my hand has a very good feel for what the plate metal is like. Many of these pianos I have reshaped V-bars on I have been maintaining for this whole time too. No problems with string buzzes/noises or breakage. In fact I have had a total of three strings break out of the many thousands I have installed over my career and one of those was a wound string.

My hypotheses are all within the bounds of known material science and vibratory modes behavior. I employ Occam's razor.

I've never had a string break in a piano I've owned. Should I expect them to if the V-bar was not shaped to your specifications?


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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Almaviva
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Sonepica
Of course, I can also mention the review of the S7X by James Pavel Shawcross. Now I know some of you here will disparage his expertise by saying he is not a serious pianist, nor piano technician; however, he has played a lot of high end pianos and thought carefully about their tonal characteristics. He considered the Yamaha S7X to be one of his favourites, despite its V cast frame.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FSCZCqWe-Y
The opinions of one or two people are no more than that. In the case of JPS I think it matters greatly that he is not an advanced pianist or piano tech since those are two of the biggest indicators of knowledge. It matters little that he has played a lot of pianos and "thought carefully"(how would anyone know that and how can someone with little knowledge do that?).

You guys are way too hard on James Pavel Shawcross. Keep in mind that this kid is only 20 or 21 years old. His knowledge of some piano minutiae (e.g., the names of exotic wood veneers used on piano rims, historical details of some piano companies, etc.) is a little lacking, and his pronunciation of some German piano company names is hilarious, but his basic knowledge of the piano is quite good. As for the charge that "he is not a serious pianist", keep in mind that he has been playing the piano ever since he was 5 years old, and that he is continuing his musical studies (including piano) at Eastern Tennessee State University. (His recording studio is in Nashville.)

In summary - ease up on the kid, guys! smile
Sorry, but playing the piano since he was five does not make him a good pianist. Based on his playing leveI, I doubt very much he is a piano major at college. He is a not just a young person but he is a young person who is offering his opinion on pianos on countless YouTube videos. Considering his knowledge level I find that pretentious, although my guess is he's made some money from the videos.

I don't use his videos myself, but if he's found a way to make a living as a musician, more power to him.


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Originally Posted by Jethro
Your proposition that strings break because molecular sized razors of diamond hardness are cutting into them is hardly the simpler explanation of the two.

No? It seems a simple explanation to me. Whether it is true or not I have no idea. I am not a materials scientist. I suspect you are not either.

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Originally Posted by David-G
Originally Posted by Jethro
Your proposition that strings break because molecular sized razors of diamond hardness are cutting into them is hardly the simpler explanation of the two.

No? It seems a simple explanation to me. Whether it is true or not I have no idea. I am not a materials scientist. I suspect you are not either.
There's a difference between simple and simpler. In my line of work I deal with the human body and we are also dealing with solid materials such as dense connective that experiences "creep" such as ligaments or tendons that overstretch and eventually can rupture or deform permanently when placed under long term mechanical stress.

Unless any piano builder or rebuilder wants to correct me but the most simple explanation of why some piano strings break is due to long-term exposure to high levels of stress that are still below the yield strength of the metal. They are simply overstretched over time from being hit repeatedly by the hammers and being stretched from repeated stress from from numerous tunings over time. I would think the yield strength is compromised if the metal had also been exposed to the elements and became corroded over time. Another contribution may be manufacturing defects. The common factor in all of this is that the tensile strength of the string had been exceeded not because something is cutting through them.

This is the simpler explanation of why strings break, not because of abrasive elements that form in the construction of a V-pro plate- which if it was true we, we would see strings breaking more often in V-pro plate pianos over sand casted plate pianos and as far as I know, no one can validate this observation. Or has there been an abundance of piano owners coming into the shop with V-pro plated pianos complaining of broken strings?


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Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Jethro, can you bring some science to the topic? What experience do you have with piano castings?
Or are you pouring some now at the beach?
Sure! How about taking brand new pianos strings wrap them around their termination points on a V-pro plate and a sand casted plate and put several tons of tension on them until they break. The hypothesis being that the ones wrapped around the V-pro plate should theoretically break sooner or more often given the abrasive nature of the surface. Repeat the process until you have enough controlled and random trials to show their is indeed a statistical significance to what you are theorizing. It's that simple. Without such trials you are going by only what you think you are seeing and not what might actually be happening. Ie. you might just be talking out of your ass and someone as educated and respected as you shouldn't be doing that.

A hypothesis is a proposed explanation (e.g. "if this then that"). "Theoretically," essentially means "maybe it will, maybe it won't." So, you ought not include the word "theoretically" in a hypothesis ( e.g. not "if this then theoretically that"). That's actually exactly the distinction that a well-defined experiment ought to be concretely determining.

Although it's poorly constructed, you word choice belies your bias and contempt, as does ending by repeating your earlier insult. A bonafide scientist should be unbiased, and dispassionate.

Frankly, the hasty "experiment" doesn't even indicate that you truly grasp the issue under discussion, let alone test for it. You're throwing around buzz words like "random" and "controlled," but you don't seem to account for those characteristics.

You're welcome to revise and resubmit. wink

(On a tangential note, )

Those who repeatedly accuse others of talking out of their anal orifice,
should be sure that they're not doing the same. thumb

Blah blah blah ….. blah blah.


EXACTLY !! thumb


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Originally Posted by Jethro
The most simple explanation of why some piano strings break is due to long-term exposure to high levels of stress that are still below the yield strength of the metal. They are simply overstretched over time from being hit repeatedly by the hammers and being stretched from repeated stress from from numerous tunings over time. I would think the yield strength is compromised if the metal had also been exposed to the elements and became corroded over time. Another contribution may be manufacturing defects. The common factor in all of this is that the tensile strength of the string had been exceeded not because something is cutting through them.

This is the simpler explanation of why strings break, not because of abrasive elements that form in the construction of a V-pro plate- which if it was true we, we would see strings breaking more often in V-pro plate pianos over sand casted plate pianos and as far as I know, no one can validate this observation. Or has there been an abundance of piano owners coming into the shop with V-pro plated pianos complaining of broken strings?

Corrosion aside, Jethro, where does this theory predict strings will break? At contact points (tuning pin, v-bar, bridge pins, hitch pin) or at random points in between?


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