2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
96 members (BlakeOR, brdwyguy, 36251, anotherscott, Andrew_G, AllThingsKeyboard, 21 invisible), 1,662 guests, and 409 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,737
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,737
I found an issue in the engine of my Kawai CN37 (and I think it should affect the CN39, DG30, CA59 and maybe ES8/ES920 and others too), when you use the Key-Transpose option together with the Stretch/User Tuning option...

Quote
How to reproduce the issue:
----------------------------
Set "Key-Transpose" to +1.
Try to change the tuning of the 88th key ("Virtual Technician" -> "Stretch/User Tuning" -> C8)...

What the user expects:
- you change the tuning of the 88th key.

What happens instead:
- the C8 option changes the tuning of the previous B7 key! So, there is no way to tune the note generated by the C8 key if you use a Key-Transpose of +1!

In general, I noticed that what happens is this:
- if you set Key-Transpose to "+n" (where n is whatever positive number) then you'll "lose" the ability to change the tuning of the last n keys! It's like the Stretch/User Tuning options doesn't work on the keys, but always on the original samples instead (i.e.: it doesn't consider what value you set in the Key-Transpose option). IMHO this is a bug because it makes impossible to change the tuning of the last (or the first, in case of negative transpose) n keys when you use the key-transpose option.

P.S.: I have checked only on my CN37, but being the software almost the same, I think the issue should be reproducible on the other mentioned instruments too... So, let me know if this is not the case, thanks!

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,737
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,737
Anyone can confirm this bug on the CN37/39, DG30, CA59, ES8/ES920 or other instruments? I believe it would affect the CA79/99 too, if they didn't remove the option to tune key-by-key, so this bug might show up in a future firmware update of these DPs too...

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,808
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,808
I’m 550 miles away from my ES8 at the moment. Seems a whisker irresponsible to report a bug in all caps when you haven’t tried the actual piano models you’re reporting to the forum, save for one. Seems like something I’d just report to KJ in a private message.

Am following, though.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,774
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,774
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
.... Seems a whisker irresponsible to report a bug in all caps when you haven’t tried the actual piano models ....

+100


Don

Kawai MP7SE, Edifier R1850DB Bookshelf speakers, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,267
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,267
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Anyone can confirm this bug on the CN37/39, DG30, CA59, ES8/ES920 or other instruments? I believe it would affect the CA79/99 too, if they didn't remove the option to tune key-by-key, so this bug might show up in a future firmware update of these DPs too...


Sounds more like a limitation than a bug. Just practice more; you won't need the transpose function.

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,413
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,413
I see no fault in the original post. None.

And I think it is indeed a bug, not a limitation.

But it's not a bug I would ever encounter. The circumstance in which it appears is quite obscure. That is:
(a) I don't use transpose
(b) I don't use those high notes B7/C8

I hope this doesn't turn into a tempest in a teapot.

[Linked Image]

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,267
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,267
To me it’s arguable that it’s working properly; virtual technician is set to adjust C8 and C8 is the ‘pitch’ that gets adjusted.

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,774
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,774
Originally Posted by emenelton
To me it’s arguable that it’s working properly; virtual technician is set to adjust C8 and C8 is the ‘pitch’ that gets adjusted.

And that is precisely why the issue is better directed to Kawai support.

They will be able to determine if it is a "bug" or simply how it was designed to work.


Don

Kawai MP7SE, Edifier R1850DB Bookshelf speakers, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,737
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,737
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
I’m 550 miles away from my ES8 at the moment. Seems a whisker irresponsible to report a bug in all caps when you haven’t tried the actual piano models you’re reporting to the forum, save for one. Seems like something I’d just report to KJ in a private message.

Am following, though.
This is the title of the thread:

[BUG][Kawai CN37(/39/CA59/ES8/ES920 too?)] Key-Transpose

What is wrong in that? Apart from the "BUG" word, the other words are not in caps... Did you see that the other models are inside parenthesis? And did you see the question mark at the end? And did you read the post where I say clearly that "I think" the bug could affect the mentioned models too? I'm irresponsible? Come on, guys...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, I will explain why I'm interested in transpose+tuning: I found a way to get some new piano timbres from my instrument and IMHO they are very very nice sounding. I'm able to get a completely different piano sound timbre. It's almost as I bought a new DP! How I do that? Follows the procedure:

1) Select a mellow piano variation, for example the Mellow Grand 1 or 2. Note that these variations are just the original piano samples internally transposed and re-tuned in real-time by the piano engine (and sometimes with a different eq or different volume of the sustained part of the samples).

2) Go in the general options and change the tuning of the DP from 440 to 427 Hz (the minimum you can get). Now the piano sound will be down of 1/2 semitone.

3) Go in the virtual technician options and go in the Stretch/UserTuning option where you can further change the tuning of each note of max another 1/2 semitone. By lowering the tuning of all the notes at the min allowed, you'll get another tuning down of 1/2 semitone.

1/2 semitone (from the 427Hz lowering) + 1/2 semitone (from the per-key tuning) = 1 semitone down!! Now we have just to transpose the keys of "+1" to re-adjust the correct tuning of the full keyboard.

Result: we have a different piano sound timbre, more colorful, more jazzy, and the piano sounds with the correct tuning! But.... The last note (C8) is not correctly tuned (because the aforementioned bug)... I know it's just the last key, but... There are some pieces where I also play the first and the last key of an 88 keys keyboard, so I'm very sad when I press that key and I hear it's clearly untuned of 1 semitone... And it's a shame because conceptually it should work flawless if it weren't for that bug!

But I know this combo (transpose + per-key tuning) normally is not much used and so Kawai probably would never care to fix this (even if I'm sure, as a software developer, it would be very simple to fix).

Anyway, there is always hope that the bug will be fixed some day, especially if there is enough interest from other users, so I made this thread... Now you can report me to the competent authorities... smile

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,267
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,267
That’s interesting, thanks for explaining. What key edits when you choose B8?

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 613
J
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 613
When I saw the post title, I was expecting something along the lines of: "Hey! I think I found a software bug. Does anyone else have it? If so we should report it!" Which seems basically like what it is.

I agree it's kind of obscure so I'm not about to rush home and try it (on my piano that isn't listed in the title.)

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,413
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,413
Indeed. There's nothing wrong. Come on, guys.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
This is the title of the thread:

[BUG][Kawai CN37[39/CA59/ES8/ES920 too?)] Key-Transpose

What is wrong in that? ... Come on, guys.

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,737
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,737
Originally Posted by emenelton
That’s interesting, thanks for explaining. What key edits when you choose B8?
B8 doesn't exists... The 88-keys keyboards go from A0 to C8. Did you mean C8?

When you choose in the user interface to edit the C8 key (in the Stretch/UserTuning menu you can press the [2] button + the KEY you want to edit, i.e.: "[2] + C8") the user expects to edit the tuning of the key you pressed (C8 in this case), regardless of the value set for the key-transpose. But the problem is that if the transpose is set to +1, then "[2] + C8" will change the tuning of B7 instead of C8. The C8 note will remain the only note untuned and no way to adjust it... IMHO this is a bug... A bug that limits the number of notes you can fine-tune when you use the key-transpose function.

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,267
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,267
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by emenelton
That’s interesting, thanks for explaining. What key edits when you choose B8?
B8 doesn't exists... The 88-keys keyboards go from A0 to C8. Did you mean C8?

When you choose in the user interface to edit the C8 key (in the Stretch/UserTuning menu you can press the [2] button + the KEY you want to edit, i.e.: "[2] + C8") the user expects to edit the tuning of the key you pressed (C8 in this case), regardless of the value set for the key-transpose. But the problem is that if the transpose is set to +1, then "[2] + C8" will change the tuning of B7 instead of C8. The C8 note will remain the only note untuned and no way to adjust it... IMHO this is a bug... A bug that limits the number of notes you can fine-tune when you use the key-transpose function.


I meant the note 1 below C8, B7, in Virtual Technician; if you choose that note than does the ‘A’ note(which is B) change?

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,737
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,737
Originally Posted by emenelton
I meant the note 1 below C8, B7, in Virtual Technician; if you choose that note than does the ‘A’ note(which is B) change?
If you choose to edit the B7 note (i.e.: you press "[2] + B7"), the A7# note will be changed instead.

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,579
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,579
I believe the +1 transpose is not applied when you select a note to modify with the virtual technician, so when you select C8, it applies the tuning change to the note C8, which is generated using the B7 key after the +1 transpose. I believe this may be because the +1 transpose is implemented in the midi tier.

Whether this is a bug or feature may depend on what you think the correct requirement should be. What is Kawai's position on it?


Taking a break from Piano World but I will receive PMs.
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,267
E
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,267
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by emenelton
I meant the note 1 below C8, B7, in Virtual Technician; if you choose that note than does the ‘A’ note(which is B) change?
If you choose to edit the B7 note (i.e.: you press "[2] + B7"), the A7# note will be changed instead.

The Virtual Technician edits the actual pitch but uses the keyboard to choose it.

Nice find. I guess it could be called it a bug but it is most likely working as designed, so I would characterize it as a design limitation.

Maybe if you were able to send it a midi note # C#8 during the choose pitch phase you might have a successful work around.

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 282
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 282
I think it is designed that way.

You want the stretch tuning to stay with the note. So if you transpose you would for instance want c4 the key that plays c4 to keep the same tuning. So if you remove the transpose it will play the same.


FP-90x, PX-330
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,413
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,413
Is there a per-note velocity adjustment?
Originally Posted by Purdy
You want the stretch tuning to stay with the note.
If so, you might want the adjustment to stay with the piano key, regardless of transposition. This can be used to compensate for variation in the sensors.

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,737
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,737
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I believe the +1 transpose is not applied when you select a note to modify with the virtual technician[...]
Exactly, that's IMHO what happens: the VT per-key tuning is applied always on the original pitches, regardless of eventual key-transposes. And this leads to "untunable" notes when the key-transpose function is used (i.e.: following this theory, C8 in the case of a +1 transpose should be adjusted by editing the tuning of C8#, but unfortunately there is no option to change C8#).
Quote
[...]Whether this is a bug or feature may depend on what you think the correct requirement should be.
Well, I don't see how the actual behavior could be considered a "feature"... I think it's just an "incomplete" implementation of the per-key tuning feature, that theoretically, if you take into consideration the key-transpose, it should allow to tune notes further than C8 and lower than A0 (based on the max number of semitones you can transpose the keyboard), but actually it doesn't, so you'll end with "n" untunable notes if you use a key-transpose of "n" semitones.
Quote
What is Kawai's position on it?
I don't know, we'll see if Kawai James has something to add, but now my hopes that this will get a fix are very low...

Originally Posted by emenelton
[...]Maybe if you were able to send it a midi note # C#8 during the choose pitch phase you might have a successful work around.
I could try, but I doubt it would work, because in the user interface I can see only notes from A0 to C8 when I select the Stretch/UserTuning option...

Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Garritan with Sibelius "sound set" ?
by RinTin - 09/28/21 03:13 PM
help teaching an autistic child
by sheilaju - 09/28/21 02:33 PM
Old Kawai MP6
by johan d - 09/28/21 02:04 PM
Half Pedaling reality check
by Dore - 09/28/21 12:47 PM
Confused.
by Cutec - 09/28/21 10:43 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
What's Hot!!
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Our Free Newsletter for Piano Lovers!
The summer edition of our free newsletter
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics209,335
Posts3,135,868
Members102,845
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5