2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
79 members (anotherscott, benj.ma, ambrozy, 36251, alexii, boo1234, accordeur, Abdol, 16 invisible), 1,097 guests, and 407 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 11 of 18 1 2 9 10 11 12 13 17 18
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,534
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,534
Originally Posted by Hakki
Because I just don't know and do not want to speculate on a subject that I don't have first hand information.

Drawing conclusions from marketing pieces is speculation.

I actually have zero opinion on whether v-cast or wet sand cast plates can be superior to the other if fabricated to the highest pianistic standard.

As a piano consumer, I find it unhelpful when people trying to sell a particular brand of piano raise a regular drumbeat of purportedly negative properties of their competitors. If you cannot sell your own product just by calling out its own virtues, I tend to assume that means it does not have enough of them for the product to distinguish itself from competitors by its own virtues.


Primary keyboard interests: Early baroque through early romantic repertoire, blues improvisation.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,972
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,972
One of the problems people are having is that what is "better" is not necessarily the same thing. Sand cast plates may be "better" because they are more economical for small runs of castings, while vacuum cast plates may be "better" economically for large runs. Two standards which depend only on economics, not on whether they impart any better performance of the piano. Nothing in Yamaha's literature implies that the method of casting the plate makes any difference to the performance of the piano. It only says that they are cast in two different manners.


Semipro Tech
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,010
E
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,010
BDB; what causes false beats in plain piano strings?


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: toneman1@me.com
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,534
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,534
V-cast plates are sand cast plates. They use negative pressure with dry sand to hold the sand in place. Wet sand cast plates are sand cast plates. They use wet sand to hold the sand in place.

Had Steinway or Bechstein developed vacuum casting, I expect we would be having a very different discussion right now.


Primary keyboard interests: Early baroque through early romantic repertoire, blues improvisation.
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,534
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,534
Quote
Whilst Yamaha is a business, I can't think that the reason they use wet sand cast plates on their CF series is because it's more profitable to do so. I would think since the vast majority of pianos they build use V-Pro plates, it would be more profitable for them to use V-Pro plates in the premium line and sell them for the current retail price.
The point of v-cast plates is that they are more consistent so that some of the manufacture of the outer case can be automated. This involves a fixed cost for the tooling needed to cut the case parts. The fixed cost for piano A with v-cast plate does not eliminate the fixed cost for piano B with v-cast plates. There needs to be enough volume of production for the tooling cost for the outer case to be paid back through savings in variable cost custom work.

Wet sand cast plates are less consistent in shape and require more manual, custom work when fabricating the outer case.

Last edited by Sweelinck; 07/31/21 12:00 AM.

Primary keyboard interests: Early baroque through early romantic repertoire, blues improvisation.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,972
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,972
Causes are not something that concerns me. I just deal with them as best I can. Again, "better" or "best" are not hard and fast terms. An expensive solution on a cheap piano or for a poor client is not a good way of dealing with them.

I am sure you have some theories about the causes. I do not want to hear them.

Last edited by BDB; 07/31/21 12:07 AM.

Semipro Tech
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,534
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,534
Also, the vacuum chambers Y and K use may not be large enough for a plate for a 9' piano, and they don't make enough 9' pianos to justify a larger vacuum chamber, which may be more cumbersome for smaller plates.

Y and K know the precise reason. None of us do.


Primary keyboard interests: Early baroque through early romantic repertoire, blues improvisation.
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 663
S
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 663
Robbie Gennet has some videos of him trying out Yamahas premium piano range, including the S7X, S5X, CF6 and CFX. He actually liked the S7X the best out of all of them (see his thoughts on the S7X at the end of the video at 3m20s, and also his response to a question about this in the comments section). If the CF line have tonal superiority due to their wet sand cast frames, it was not something he noticed in a side by side comparison.




Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 663
S
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 663
Of course, I can also mention the review of the S7X by James Pavel Shawcross. Now I know some of you here will disparage his expertise by saying he is not a serious pianist, nor piano technician; however, he has played a lot of high end pianos and thought carefully about their tonal characteristics. He considered the Yamaha S7X to be one of his favourites, despite its V cast frame.


Last edited by Sonepica; 07/31/21 02:56 AM.
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 663
S
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 663
Wait, I just realised something really concerning - Robbie Gennet is playing *JAZZ* music on that piano! But that piano is only suitable for early classical music!

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,823
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,823
Originally Posted by Sonepica
Of course, I can also mention the review of the S7X by James Pavel Shawcross. Now I know some of you here will disparage his expertise by saying he is not a serious pianist, nor piano technician; however, he has played a lot of high end pianos and thought carefully about their tonal characteristics. He considered the Yamaha S7X to be one of his favourites, despite its V cast frame.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FSCZCqWe-Y
The opinions of one or two people are no more than that. In the case of JPS I think it matters greatly that he is not an advanced pianist or piano tech since those are two of the biggest indicators of knowledge. It matters little that he has played a lot of pianos and "thought carefully"(how would anyone know that and how can someone with little knowledge do that?).

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,747
j&j Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,747
I’m sure Yamaha has noted, debated, and agonized over why Kawai can use VPro plates in all their Shigerus except for the concert grand. Plus, Yamaha changed the S series sand cast plate to a VPro plate while introducing the special rim that for now is only found on the SX series so now so you can’t really compare the differences between the two different series to hear the difference.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
The reason I’m old and wise is because God protected me when I was young and stupid.
[Linked Image]
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 8,725
Silver Subscriber
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 8,725
IMHO
Del’s post, which has been ignored by many, is that the method of casting doesn’t matter. That’s enough for me.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,747
j&j Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,747
Originally Posted by dogperson
IMHO
Del’s post, which has been ignored by many, is that the method of casting doesn’t matter. That’s enough for me.

Agreed. Del is far more experienced than I am, so that sounds about right. It makes sense. If one method was proved to be a significant improvement over the other, every piano maker would move to use the better method.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
The reason I’m old and wise is because God protected me when I was young and stupid.
[Linked Image]
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,010
E
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,010
I strongly suggest that anyone purchasing a piano ask the seller or have tested the V-bar for hardness regardless of the plate casting methods used. And the profile of the V-bar should be examined and best results have been proven over time to require the V-bar to be a definite V-shape, (most V-bars are more U-shaped), with a 1mm string contact width at the apex of the V.

It is all about not crushing the wire, or subjecting it to abrasion during tuning, and allowing for full freedom for the pivot termination principle to function.

Soft grey iron is the most self-lubricious. Harder forms of grey iron are more abrasive. Ask any machinist who works with iron castings. All iron castings have a hard skin on them so the V-bar must be made oversize during the casting process and machined down to final specs.

When I published my text for piano technicians titled: The Educated Piano; Steinway purchased seven copies. I ran into Michael Mohr, (who works for them and is Franz Mohr's son) at a PTG convention shortly after my book came out. Michael told me after he read my blurb on V-bars he went and looked up all the different specs Steinway has had over the years about V-bars. Michael said, "He found one that described my specs exactly the same way." I told him, I know, I have found a few old Steinway's that were at that spec.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: toneman1@me.com
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,534
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,534
Quote
Michael told me after he read my blurb on V-bars he went and looked up all the different specs Steinway has had over the years about V-bars. Michael said, "He found one that described my specs exactly the same way." I told him, I know, I have found a few old Steinway's that were at that spec.
Well, that would explain why there is no data showing Yamaha and Kawai pianos breaking strings more often than Steinways. Apparently Steinway has been using the wrong v-bar spec for many decades as well.


Primary keyboard interests: Early baroque through early romantic repertoire, blues improvisation.
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,010
E
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,010
And they are far from alone on this.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: toneman1@me.com
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,534
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,534
In other words, pianos with v-pro plates do not shed strings more frequently than other pianos made in recent decades.

Here is an unclassified report of a study by the Australian military that found no measurable difference in hardness whether negative pressure was applied (two different levels of vacuum were tested) or the casting was done at atmospheric pressure.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a623833.pdf

Thus, if plates are being made of a harder material today than 150 years ago, it certainly seems to be intentional, realizing whatever detriments and benefits the harder plate achieves.

Last edited by Sweelinck; 07/31/21 06:32 PM.

Primary keyboard interests: Early baroque through early romantic repertoire, blues improvisation.
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 663
S
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 663
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Sonepica
Of course, I can also mention the review of the S7X by James Pavel Shawcross. Now I know some of you here will disparage his expertise by saying he is not a serious pianist, nor piano technician; however, he has played a lot of high end pianos and thought carefully about their tonal characteristics. He considered the Yamaha S7X to be one of his favourites, despite its V cast frame.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FSCZCqWe-Y
The opinions of one or two people are no more than that. In the case of JPS I think it matters greatly that he is not an advanced pianist or piano tech since those are two of the biggest indicators of knowledge. It matters little that he has played a lot of pianos and "thought carefully"(how would anyone know that and how can someone with little knowledge do that?).

Well then whose opinion should we value, pianoloverus? What about yours? Have you noticed a difference between pianos with different types of plates?

Before I purchased the Yamaha S7X, I went to the Fazioli dealer. Now a Fazioli would have been almost double the cost of the S7X, but if it was a far superior piano, I would have considered it. I played the 278 for a while. It was fine, but was just like an ordinary piano. Nothing about it struck me as especially beautiful. Then the dealer informed me that he had the 228 upstairs, so I followed him up the stairs to try it. The main thing I noticed about it was that it didn't have the sharp "attack" character of the Yamaha, but had a smoother, rounder sound. Of course, I can't say how much the plate had to do with the different characteristics of the piano. But after about 15 seconds of playing the Fazioli 228 I knew it was not worth the extra AU80k-100k to me. It was different. Not necessarily better unless you happen to prefer its particular characteristics. It was a lot more expensive.

As for the idea that wet sand cast plates produce better sustain, the Bosendorfers and Faziolis I played all had very little sustain in the high treble. Probably no better than that on the Yamahas. The only wet sand cast piano I played where I noticed superior sustain in the treble was the cheap Hailun 218.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,354
H
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
H
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,354
You made your choice and you are happy with it. That is all that matters.

But why are you trying to convince other people?

Some people just prefer to buy a Bosendorfer or a Fazioli or a Steinway even it is twice the price of an S7X. They just think its worth it. And that is their choice.
Just let it go.

Page 11 of 18 1 2 9 10 11 12 13 17 18

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Learning and strong emotions...
by CianistAndPomposer - 09/16/21 06:21 PM
Gift Piano from Elton John?
by JohnSprung - 09/16/21 04:54 PM
Kawai ES520 user's own thread
by 36251 - 09/16/21 04:11 PM
For those who love Martha Argerich...
by AaronSF - 09/16/21 03:17 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics209,142
Posts3,132,736
Members102,747
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5