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Originally Posted by j&j
I’m just wonder how piano makers decide which casting method to use when designing their pianos? Maybe the available workspace and trained staff play more in the decision than does scientific evidence that one method is better than another.

J&J, you've hit a couple of relevant issues that I don't think have been discussed yet: staff and capacity.

I spent a decade or so in manufacturing after college, and then continued to support some manufacturing clients long-term over the years. A lot of that had to do with automating and modernizing production lines, which is how I would characterize a shift to vacuum casting.

In the large, the decision is going to be based on things far less glamorous than we like to talk about here, but some of which has been discussed above. The company is going to do ROI analysis on the decision--and since the finished product would be virtually identical (as described above by Del Fandrich and The Idiot's Guide)--go with the most cost effective. If the company didn't previously do vacuum casting, they'll factor in the cost of equipping their facility to do it, which would include training and potentially retaining a savvier staff (if v-pro requires it). If they're already equipped to do both, then they'll consider the equipment's capacity (e.g. maybe 9' is too long), and also their ongoing utilization of the two methods as well as their overall capacity (e.g. maybe the v-pro line is already maxed out, or vice versa), whether or not they anticipate producing enough to justify v-pro's additional setup costs, etc.

With a "new" technology there are upfront installation costs (a factory can't do v-pro without v-pro equipment), but in ongoing manufacturing there are also "setup" costs when you shut down a line and change it to produce something else, which could also impact the decision. For example, Yamaha obviously has the capacity to do v-pro. But assuming their production lines are running at or near capacity, shutting a production line down to reconfigure to produce one or two 9ft plates, and then retool to go back to a large volume model might be too disruptive (costly). In that case, it might be easier to just sand cast the plate. OTOH, if the v-pro equipment is optimized to just slide in whatever mold is desired, casting any and all sizes on demand, then it just becomes a question of whether or not you've got a 9ft v-pro mold available (assuming it can do that size--remember, the assembly lines are going to be optimized for what's done all day, every day).

Anyway, the above is only the 30,000 foot view of "manufacturing."


And, as Joe pointed out above, it could simply be a marketing call anyway. The easiest way to deflect the FUD (e.g. "show me one top-tier manufacturer who doesn't sand cast"), is to sand cast. The resulting part is essentially equivalent, and then these low-volume models won't disrupt the more profitable mass production. Sort of a home run from a bottom-line perspective.


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We had a metallurgist deny your claim that there are diamond-like structures in steel. It is actually difficult to deny any of your claims, because they are so vague and you offer no evidence for them other than what you say. For instance, you talk about "research," but you do not say who did that research, or what it says. You offer no explanation of how the casting "has to be significant." Provide some explanation, and maybe your ideas will get some traction.


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Retsacnal: Your argument is excellent until you get to the part about "virtually identical".

The behavior of the metal, and how the string termination features are designed, affect how longitudinal waves are coupled to each other, the transverse waves, and to the air. The behavior of the metal also affects how durable the wire will be in service.

If a company has engineering that ignores or misunderstands this, tone issues, string longevity issues, and extraneous noise issues will pop up.

BDB: Do you really think pianos should not be played with as full a dynamic range as the human physic allows? Isn't that part of their appeal? A dynamic range from whisper soft to as full as can be generated without distortion is not desired?

I have many, many pianos that have stood the test of maximal dynamic utility with no penalty to longevity. In fact my LightHammer Tone Regulation results in pianos that have far more durable and stable actions. And providing string terminations that maximize the pivot termination effect and don't crush and abrade the wire at the termination point also result in pianos that essentially don't break strings over decades of use.

I am an old man who has been doing what I advocate here for a long time. Funny how there are no reports of failure from my customers and competitors in my market seeing how I have worked the same market all my life.


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You are not answering questions. You only cite yourself. Those are characteristics of a quack.


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I must of hit a sore spot on you. Why do you take my experience as a personal insult? Your attitude does nothing to forward our profession.

I have the pianos to prove what I am talking about. That is reality. Written evidence can never be that real.


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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Retsacnal: Your argument is excellent until you get to the part about "virtually identical".

The behavior of the metal, and how the string termination features are designed, affect how longitudinal waves are coupled to each other, the transverse waves, and to the air. The behavior of the metal also affects how durable the wire will be in service.

If a company has engineering that ignores or misunderstands this, tone issues, string longevity issues, and extraneous noise issues will pop up.


I thought about that, but wanted to focus on the v-pro vs. sand cast decision (there are a number of sub-topics in this thread). If I understand correctly, case hardening can be applied to either type of casting, so not necessarily a factor in the choice between the two. Also, as you've pointed out, these issues aren't on the manufacturer's radar anyway, so they wouldn't factor into their decision processes. That may or may not be unfortunate, but it doesn't seem to be part of their calculus.


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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
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In layman’s terms it’s called talking out of ones ass.

Actually, it's simply having an opinion. Describing it this way seems unnecessarily inflammatory.

PW is not a peer reviewed journal, and the scientific method isn't required to support anyone's thoughts and opinions. If that were the threshold for "publication" here, we'd lose the vast majority of content, most of which is simply based on people's experience and anecdotal observations.
There's nothing wrong with having an opinion or making observations, or having theories or hypothesis- that's how good science begins. But you have to test these theories before you state them as fact.

Many tarot card readers have been in the been in the business for a long time. They've held seminars. Written books. Made hundreds of readings. They are so called experts in their field. But unless they have real empirical evidence and a firm methodology to back up what they say, there's always a good chance that someone's going to call them out as quacks.

You back up what you say with some solid research and there's a good chance that people will take you seriously.

Last edited by Jethro; 07/30/21 12:16 PM.

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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
I should point out to those here who are ignoring it or unaware, that research has shown longitudinal wave energy has a significant effect on piano tone.

This research has also shown that longitudinal wave energy is very "leaky and sneaky".

The influence of the damping character of the casting on longitudinal mode has to be significant because of how longitudinal modes behave.

So I ask of those posters who deny what I am saying: How much experience do you have examining, and shaping V-bars? How much experience do you have examining how hard a casting is? How much experience do you have studying longitudinal waves in piano strings? How much experience do you have looking at worn piano strings under microscopes? And finally: why do you think I would lie to you?

Ed, you are bringing up interesting ideas. My guess, and only a guess, is that differences between the 2 casting methods and their effect on damping longitudinal modes, for example, relate mostly to places where the strings contact the frame, where differences in surface hardness and lubricity are likely be the main contributor to the effects you describe. I think it's important to distinguish between surface effects and the bulk characteristics of the castings, specifically damping factor and Young's modulus. I suspect those 2 parameters of the bulk material probably don't vary that much between casting methods, and aren't strong contributors to tone differences. The stiffness of the various parts of the plate can easily be adjusted by changing the bracing and cross-sectional areas of various parts of the plate, so the desired stiffness can be obtained irrespective of which casting process is used. I'm not convinced that the bulk damping factor is incredibly important. I suspect the damping factor that results from the 2 casting methods is quite similar, and can be altered by the choice of the particular cast iron used, and perhaps the cooling rate. Also, the damping factor of the plate may well be less of a contributor than the damping of the wooden frame, the damping of the soundboard, the damping caused by the hammers staying in contact with the string after the initial strike, the damping of the strings' terminations, etc.. I do recall Del Frandrich reporting on successful prototype pianos that had steel plates that had been water-jet cut with welded on portions as required. That suggests to me that, if frames are properly designed for a given material, that good results can be obtained from a wide variety of material. Of course, one still has the issue of surface hardness and lubricity to deal with, which I don't want to downplay.

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Originally Posted by Roy123
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
I should point out to those here who are ignoring it or unaware, that research has shown longitudinal wave energy has a significant effect on piano tone.

This research has also shown that longitudinal wave energy is very "leaky and sneaky".

The influence of the damping character of the casting on longitudinal mode has to be significant because of how longitudinal modes behave.

So I ask of those posters who deny what I am saying: How much experience do you have examining, and shaping V-bars? How much experience do you have examining how hard a casting is? How much experience do you have studying longitudinal waves in piano strings? How much experience do you have looking at worn piano strings under microscopes? And finally: why do you think I would lie to you?

Ed, you are bringing up interesting ideas. My guess, and only a guess, is that differences between the 2 casting methods and their effect on damping longitudinal modes, for example, relate mostly to places where the strings contact the frame, where differences in surface hardness and lubricity are likely be the main contributor to the effects you describe. I think it's important to distinguish between surface effects and the bulk characteristics of the castings, specifically damping factor and Young's modulus. I suspect those 2 parameters of the bulk material probably don't vary that much between casting methods, and aren't strong contributors to tone differences. The stiffness of the various parts of the plate can easily be adjusted by changing the bracing and cross-sectional areas of various parts of the plate, so the desired stiffness can be obtained irrespective of which casting process is used. I'm not convinced that the bulk damping factor is incredibly important. I suspect the damping factor that results from the 2 casting methods is quite similar, and can be altered by the choice of the particular cast iron used, and perhaps the cooling rate. Also, the damping factor of the plate may well be less of a contributor than the damping of the wooden frame, the damping of the soundboard, the damping caused by the hammers staying in contact with the string after the initial strike, the damping of the strings' terminations, etc.. I do recall Del Frandrich reporting on successful prototype pianos that had steel plates that had been water-jet cut with welded on portions as required. That suggests to me that, if frames are properly designed for a given material, that good results can be obtained from a wide variety of material. Of course, one still has the issue of surface hardness and lubricity to deal with, which I don't want to downplay.
Yes the next step for such hard work is a study, but if all you've got to show for yourself is "pianos", well sorry but that's not going to cut it.

Last edited by Jethro; 07/30/21 12:21 PM.

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And if the "pianos" are hundreds of miles away, and the claim includes things that would take decades to prove, there is not much chance of verification.


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So I ask of those posters who deny what I am saying: How much experience do you have examining, and shaping V-bars? How much experience do you have examining how hard a casting is? How much experience do you have studying longitudinal waves in piano strings? How much experience do you have looking at worn piano strings under microscopes? And finally: why do you think I would lie to you?
Ed, the problem is that you continue to miss the point. We believe you that some plates are case hardened. Your work with some that are harder than others corroborates that. But the claim that case hardened plates are inferior is unsubstantiated. It is your opinion. You may be correct. But you still have presented no evidence that pianos with case-hardened plates have a faster rate of string breakage, all else equal.

You conceded that the strings "soft machine" a capo d'astro bar that was not case hardened, i.e. wear slight grooves into the capo d'astro bar. This may preserve the strings some by having the force of tuning and tension act on the softer capo d'astro bar instead of on the strings. But it also creates wear on the capo d'astro bar, changing its shape, which it seems to me could introduce subtle changes to the speaking length of the strings that run across the capo d'astro bar. Tuning to pitch would compensate for this, but it would alter the tension on the strings (potentially introducing more wear on the pin block in the treble area), alter the scale design, and alter resonance frequencies, i.e. introducing subtle changes in tone. The soft machining of the strings into the plate also will create metal dust. This will increase friction on the string sliding on the capo d'astro bar when tuning, also likely to be undesirable.

But any such claims also need to be substantiated or falsified.

Here is a famous advertising story about capo d'astro bars and that illuminates how pianos are marketed.

https://johndrake.typepad.com/advertising/2016/04/finding-the-capo-dastro-bar-1.html

I am not surprised that you found an Aeolian era Mason & Hamlin to have a hardened plate. They clearly were concerned with plate stability.

I think it is unlikely that the iron casting methods available in 1825, when Alpheus Babcock was granted a patent for his invention of a full cast iron plate, would coincidentally lead to the optimal cast iron plate. There has been almost 200 years of advancement in metallurgy since then, and it is indisputable that various piano manufacturers have experimented with technologies developed since then.


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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
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So I ask of those posters who deny what I am saying: How much experience do you have examining, and shaping V-bars? How much experience do you have examining how hard a casting is? How much experience do you have studying longitudinal waves in piano strings? How much experience do you have looking at worn piano strings under microscopes? And finally: why do you think I would lie to you?
Ed, the problem is that you continue to miss the point. We believe you that some plates are case hardened. Your work with some that are harder than others corroborates that. But the claim that case hardened plates are inferior is unsubstantiated. It is your opinion. You may be correct. But you still have presented no evidence that pianos with case-hardened plates have a faster rate of string breakage, all else equal.

You conceded that the strings "soft machine" a capo d'astro bar that was not case hardened, i.e. wear slight grooves into the capo d'astro bar. This may preserve the strings some by having the force of tuning and tension act on the softer capo d'astro bar instead of on the strings. But it also creates wear on the capo d'astro bar, changing its shape, which it seems to me could introduce subtle changes to the speaking length of the strings that run across the capo d'astro bar. Tuning to pitch would compensate for this, but it would alter the tension on the strings (potentially introducing more wear on the pin block in the treble area), alter the scale design, and alter resonance frequencies, i.e. introducing subtle changes in tone. The soft machining of the strings into the plate also will create metal dust. This will increase friction on the string sliding on the capo d'astro bar when tuning, also likely to be undesirable.

But any such claims also need to be substantiated or falsified.

Here is a famous advertising story about capo d'astro bars and that illuminates how pianos are marketed.

https://johndrake.typepad.com/advertising/2016/04/finding-the-capo-dastro-bar-1.html

I am not surprised that you found an Aeolian era Mason & Hamlin to have a hardened plate. They clearly were concerned with plate stability.

I think it is unlikely that the iron casting methods available in 1825, when Alpheus Babcock was granted a patent for his invention of a full cast iron plate, would coincidentally lead to the optimal cast iron plate. There has been almost 200 years of advancement in metallurgy since then, and it is indisputable that various piano manufacturers have experimented with technologies developed since then.

There is a big problem in the portion of your argument that I bolded. If what you say were true, the brass agraffes would be utter disasters. However, they're not, which means that the slight groove that the strings wear in the metal of the agraffes and in the less hard capo bars is simply not a problem. Now, in order for that to be the case, presumably the shape of the agraffes and shape of the capo would have to be appropriate to the task. I would add further that the string resting on a knife edge of sorts would surely be undesirable, so the small groove caused by the pressure and slight movement of the string on the agraffe or capo may be just the ticket.

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Again back to Retsacnal’s point. Why would Yamaha choose to use wet sand casting on their CF series pianos? Because it is profitable to do so. Why does Yamaha use VPro Casting on all their other pianos? Because it is profitable. I know there are additional component differences between the CF series and the SX series. There is even more component differentiation between the CF and CX line. Determining exactly which component brings the greatest improvement in sound and feel is like figuring out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Acoustic pianos are exceptionally complicated analog machines.


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Originally Posted by j&j
Again back to Retsacnal’s point. Why would Yamaha choose to use wet sand casting on their CF series pianos?

Because Yamaha says this for the plates used on their CF series:

”The frames are individually hand molded and sand cast to enhance the strength and stability of the pianos. This contributes to the outstanding tonal character and sustain of the series.”

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However, that is not a comparison. It is just advertising hype.


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Originally Posted by BDB
However, that is not a comparison. It is just advertising hype.

I already explained this to Hakki and he just ignored me.

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Originally Posted by Sonepica
Originally Posted by BDB
However, that is not a comparison. It is just advertising hype.

I already explained this to Hakki and he just ignored me.

Unless you two have inside information that this is just an advertising lie and not true, I will continue to ignore your opinions.

I trust and believe what Yamaha says. They are a very reputable company.

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Whilst Yamaha is a business, I can't think that the reason they use wet sand cast plates on their CF series is because it's more profitable to do so. I would think since the vast majority of pianos they build use V-Pro plates, it would be more profitable for them to use V-Pro plates in the premium line and sell them for the current retail price.

Yamaha will tell you themselves that the CF series pianos represent the best piano they can build at the moment, and that they are constantly looking for ways to make each CF piano better than the previous one. Obviously at that level of piano making, better is subjective because one pianist likes one sound and another likes a different sound. I can only think that the reason Yamaha use wet sand cast plates for the top line and V-pro plates for everything else is that they have discovered that is what is required for producing the best possible tone that they can in a high-end piano.


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Thanks JF. I wouldn’t have said it any better.

Yamaha has dedicated their best staff to develop the CF series. They say it took 19 years. Of course the reason they choose to use those plates in their CF line might not be just for advertising purposes.

It is sad to see people from nowhere dispraise all the hard work those employees have put day and night through their lives to develop their flagship pianos.

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Originally Posted by Joseph Fleetwood
Whilst Yamaha is a business, I can't think that the reason they use wet sand cast plates on their CF series is because it's more profitable to do so. I would think since the vast majority of pianos they build use V-Pro plates, it would be more profitable for them to use V-Pro plates in the premium line and sell them for the current retail price.

Yamaha will tell you themselves that the CF series pianos represent the best piano they can build at the moment, and that they are constantly looking for ways to make each CF piano better than the previous one. Obviously at that level of piano making, better is subjective because one pianist likes one sound and another likes a different sound. I can only think that the reason Yamaha use wet sand cast plates for the top line and V-pro plates for everything else is that they have discovered that is what is required for producing the best possible tone that they can in a high-end piano.

Perhaps Yamaha should get Hailun to manufacture wet sand cast plates for them at the Hailun factory, just like the ones Hailun uses in their much cheaper pianos. Then the whole Yamaha range could have that "high end" tone!

I doubt Yamaha have conclusively demonstrated that wet sand cast produces a better tone, and "better" is highly subjective anyway. If they didn't do it for economic or manufacturing scale reasons, they probably just did it because that's what Steinway and other brands are using and it was safest just to copy them. It was, after all, their goal to try to compete with these more prestigious brands.

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