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#3140795 07/26/21 11:15 PM
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What arpeggios are these ? Thanks in advance !

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I see Fmaj7#5 and the second could be Abmaj7#5 if there was Ab instead of a G#.

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My first instinct was Fmaj7#5 too - but I'd probably think of it more as two separate chords: Fmaj#5 and then A Major.

Second one could be broken down in a similar way: Cmaj#5 then C major.

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I don't have a keyboard to try it out. I go by the sound, not being strong in theory. First one looks like it will sound A major even if it doesn't really parse out.

The lesson here is when you write music use a key signature instead of accidentals. <smiley>


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Since in the 2nd G# slides down to G nat each time, could that just be C major with a kind of appoggiatura feel to it? (Actually the first one also sort of does the same thing)

It might be good to see both of them in the context of the music.

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Also, just to add, that I'd probably play these using two hands crossing-over i.e. I wouldn't play it as a one handed arp. RH - LH - RH - LH

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I also play them with both hands as it dramatically improves speed and flow. Regarding the writing, these I just picked up by ear... I hear them used a lot in classical piano concertos when the piano is interacting with the orchestra. Not sure why I can't find them in my Technical Workbook of scales and arpeggios, which has most arpeggios and arpeggio variants required for grades 1 to 8.

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Here's another one for good measure:

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I should add I play around with these for four or five octaves, not just two. Also using the pedal adds to the effect.

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The third one is Cmaj7#5.

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Nobody has said anything about my proposition of an alternate way of viewing these, nor has anyone picked up on my comment about context (we've not been given any - the OP probably doesn't know that it matters and nobody else has asked about it). I ran this by my teacher.

There are different ways of perceiving those chords. With the original two, they are both the same pattern or chord. The first can also be seen as A6 (A C# E F) - my appog.-slidey thing for the F. with the main chord as the A chord also had merit for how to hear it. But I was asked "What is the musical context? What do the measures before and after do?" which I couldn't answer. "Why didn't the asker give that?" and "Didn't anybody ask?" Well - I did.

Musical context tells us how to hear the chords, and also whether they should have been written differently. Think of the aug6 chord, where you hear a "dom7" both times. If it's going to F or Fm, it will be written C7, but if it's going to B or Bm, it will be written C(aug6) in whatever inversion.

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The third one is Cmaj7#5.
Is that the only possible way of seeing it? It is the same pattern as the other two.

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Originally Posted by keystring
Nobody has said anything about my proposition of an alternate way of viewing these, nor has anyone picked up on my comment about context (we've not been given any - the OP probably doesn't know that it matters and nobody else has asked about it). I ran this by my teacher.

There are different ways of perceiving those chords. With the original two, they are both the same pattern or chord. The first can also be seen as A6 (A C# E F) - my appog.-slidey thing for the F. with the main chord as the A chord also had merit for how to hear it. But I was asked "What is the musical context? What do the measures before and after do?" which I couldn't answer. "Why didn't the asker give that?" and "Didn't anybody ask?" Well - I did.

Musical context tells us how to hear the chords, and also whether they should have been written differently. Think of the aug6 chord, where you hear a "dom7" both times. If it's going to F or Fm, it will be written C7, but if it's going to B or Bm, it will be written C(aug6) in whatever inversion.

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The third one is Cmaj7#5.
Is that the only possible way of seeing it? It is the same pattern as the other two.


You missed the OPs explanation: he picked these up from listening and transcribed. He can’t find them in his technique book but practices them in multiple octaves.


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Originally Posted by keystring
Nobody has said anything about my proposition of an alternate way of viewing these, nor has anyone picked up on my comment about context (we've not been given any - the OP probably doesn't know that it matters and nobody else has asked about it). I ran this by my teacher.

There are different ways of perceiving those chords. With the original two, they are both the same pattern or chord. The first can also be seen as A6 (A C# E F) - my appog.-slidey thing for the F. with the main chord as the A chord also had merit for how to hear it. But I was asked "What is the musical context? What do the measures before and after do?" which I couldn't answer. "Why didn't the asker give that?" and "Didn't anybody ask?" Well - I did.

Musical context tells us how to hear the chords, and also whether they should have been written differently. Think of the aug6 chord, where you hear a "dom7" both times. If it's going to F or Fm, it will be written C7, but if it's going to B or Bm, it will be written C(aug6) in whatever inversion.

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The third one is Cmaj7#5.
Is that the only possible way of seeing it? It is the same pattern as the other two.

I mentioned that I thought it was two separate chords - and I still think that.

It won't be found in a technique book because it's not an arpeggio, more of a melody for two hands to play.

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Originally Posted by dogperson
You missed the OPs explanation: he picked these up from listening and transcribed. He can’t find them in his technique book but practices them in multiple octaves.
Apparently I did, though I also wrote more than about that in the quote.

Then question to the OP - Does what got transcribed live within a context - within more things in the music? Would it be a possible to get a link to the music (recording), or the name of it?

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Originally Posted by fatar760
It won't be found in a technique book because it's not an arpeggio, more of a melody for two hands to play.

Probably with a walking bass to add context.


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Originally Posted by keystring
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The third one is Cmaj7#5.
Is that the only possible way of seeing it? It is the same pattern as the other two.
Well, we were asked a simple question, 'What arpeggios are these?' This question has a simple and exact answer: these are arpeggiated third inversions of augmented major seventh chords F, Ab and C (with the second one in all likelihood transcribed incorrectly): Fmaj7#5/E, Abmaj7#5/G, Cmaj7#5/B

If we were given musical context for each example, there might have been a place for other speculations, but without context the answer seems clear.

There is no indication that G# in the second example may be considered an appoggiatura (a non-chord tone). It also concerns other examples.


I would also like to make some notes, considering that it's the Piano Teachers Forum and students may be reading it.

Originally Posted by keystring
The first can also be seen as A6 (A C# E F)
No, A6 chord is A C# E F#.

Originally Posted by fatar760
My first instinct was Fmaj7#5 too - but I'd probably think of it more as two separate chords: Fmaj#5 and then A Major.
There is no such conventional chord notation Fmaj#5, what you meant is called Faug.

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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by fatar760
My first instinct was Fmaj7#5 too - but I'd probably think of it more as two separate chords: Fmaj#5 and then A Major.

There is no such conventional chord notation Fmaj#5, what you meant is called Faug.

You're quite right, this was a poor typo influenced by the Fmaj7#5. Hopefully my suggestion was still clear.

The OP mentioned a classical context, of which I've not seen this in a tech book; however, I wonder if this augmented-major 7 pattern appears in any of my jazz tech books.

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Originally Posted by fatar760
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by fatar760
My first instinct was Fmaj7#5 too - but I'd probably think of it more as two separate chords: Fmaj#5 and then A Major.

There is no such conventional chord notation Fmaj#5, what you meant is called Faug.

You're quite right, this was a poor typo influenced by the Fmaj7#5. Hopefully my suggestion was still clear.

Your suggestion is clear, but it has a flaw. The example consists of 16 notes. The sequence of Faug and A chords consists of only 6 notes, so the last 2 notes (F and E) of both first and second measures remain unattributed.

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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by fatar760
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by fatar760
My first instinct was Fmaj7#5 too - but I'd probably think of it more as two separate chords: Fmaj#5 and then A Major.

There is no such conventional chord notation Fmaj#5, what you meant is called Faug.

You're quite right, this was a poor typo influenced by the Fmaj7#5. Hopefully my suggestion was still clear.

Your suggestion is clear, but it has a flaw. The example consists of 16 notes. The sequence of Faug and A chords consists of only 6 notes, so the last 2 notes (F and E) of both first and second measures remain unattributed.

But still part of a sequence involving Faug and A chords. Truth is that we don't know what happens afterwards as the bars are empty. Like I said, in a classical context I don't recognise the arp but in a jazz context I do: my first thought matched yours, and I think it's the most sage explanation BUT from a practical perspective I'd probably think of the former to negotiate my way through it.

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Originally Posted by fatar760
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by fatar760
My first instinct was Fmaj7#5 too - but I'd probably think of it more as two separate chords: Fmaj#5 and then A Major.

Your suggestion is clear, but it has a flaw. The example consists of 16 notes. The sequence of Faug and A chords consists of only 6 notes, so the last 2 notes (F and E) of both first and second measures remain unattributed.

But still part of a sequence involving Faug and A chords. Truth is that we don't know what happens afterwards as the bars are empty. Like I said, in a classical context I don't recognise the arp but in a jazz context I do: my first thought matched yours, and I think it's the most sage explanation BUT from a practical perspective I'd probably think of the former to negotiate my way through it.

The truth is that you would fail a theory exam with that kind of explanation.

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