2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
89 members (anotherscott, Alex Hutor, Alfred La Fleur, accordeur, ando, 36251, AaronSF, 17 invisible), 1,025 guests, and 466 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 4 of 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 17 18
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,551
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,551
Originally Posted by Sonepica
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by Jojovan
Quote
The wet sand casting creates a more bell like tone with rounded edges (think Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, Bosendorfer, etc) while v-pro plates tend to sound more bright and crisp (think Yamaha, Kawai, etc).10 Mar 2020


source: internet

Well that narrows the source down to a known reliable source.

I would think that if the plate did have an effect on the sound, it would only be certain parts of the keyboard. Perhaps those notes with frequencies close to the resonating frequency of the plate. I doubt the plate could make every note brighter from A0 to C8.

Yes. If plate resonance is the concern, the resonance frenquencies could be determined empirically, and we would be having an objective discussion based on known facts.


Primary keyboard interests: Early baroque through early romantic repertoire, blues improvisation.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 947
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 947
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Quote
I work with Carnegie Hall level performance artists preparing pianos and am very aware of minor differences preventing a piano from reaching the top and even if V pro can reach 99% of sand cast, the target players of the CF can tell the difference., even if you or I can't.

Nonsense. The difference in sound imparted by the casting method of the plate certainly is less than the variability in sound quality between two randomly chosen Steinways of the same model.

Thus, if you are talking about a 1% difference in some hypothetical quantitatve measure of quality, or the differences detected by a virtuoso that you or I could not detect, you could only make that distinction if you had two otherwise identical pianos, one with V-process plate and one with wet sand cast plate. No such comparison is even possible.

Perhaps if you use your real name, qualifications and experience, you can be more than another internet expert. As of now, it seems you have no experience to make any such statements.

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 669
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 669
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson
Originally Posted by Sonepica
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson
In Yamaha marketing, they tout the V process. Their CF grands, which get redesigned regularly at great cost do not use this technology, never did.
Considering the marketing potential of claiming their concert grand uses the same technology as their regular pianos, and their huge marketing budget and their regular highly expensive redesigns and retooling of this piano, the cost of tooling for a V plate in the CF is insignificant and the only reason I can think of is at the very highest of levels of performance, the V process has to be lacking. They spend a fortune retooling this piano every few years, they give many away for free at high visibility venues. They could easily make a V plate on this piano but don't. The cost argument falls very flat and is not believable to me.
You're missing the salient facts here, Steve. The V-pro method is employed when they have a high volume run of plates to cast. It is expensive to set up a run, but once you do, you can pump out a large volume at a time, with the cost spread across these units. The CF is a low production piano line. They don't use the V-pro method because they don't pump out a thousand of these plates at a time, so they can't amortise costs over many units. You're looking for hidden reasons, but it's already a known fact that this is how it works. Yamaha makes very high quality grand pianos - they are one of the few piano manufacturers with enough sales volume to actually make the V-pro method work for them. Other smaller makers aren't doing it because it doesn't work for their production volume. Yamahas aren't beset with terrible resonances. So I'd say the idea that the vacuum method is inferior is a non-starter. It's an industrial/production calculation. I have no doubt that if they suddenly had cause to make 10,000 CFX grands, they be setting up a V-pro run immediately.

The CX line can use V-pro because they are made in high volume. The SX line can as well because they are almost exactly the same design with different woods and hammers. The CF pianos are a different design requiring a different plate.

Shigeru Kawai also use V casting for the same reason.

Steve has rubbished Yamaha pianos on account of the V casting before. He also told us a story about how they used cheap synthetic material in the hammers instead of wool, which I think turned out not to be true. He has an axe to grind against Yamaha.

A lot of suppositions here. I've worked manufacturing hammers and am on agreeable terms with felt suppliers and do have some industry inside info. They and many other manufacturers are using artificial fibres in hammers.

I understand the argument why the CF uses sand cast, but it makes no sense for a market oriented company on a flagship product with a flagship procedure.

As Ed also notes, there are differences with plates. It mattered enough to Steinway that they used to make their own plates. I work with Carnegie Hall level performance artists preparing pianos and am very aware of minor differences preventing a piano from reaching the top and even if V pro can reach 99% of sand cast, the target players of the CF can tell the difference., even if you or I can't.

Ad hominen attacks usually means you can't defend your opinion or argument, so you attack the person not the argument. I know how people get attached to brands and defend their choice but all that matters is what you think of your choice. To dismiss a senior concert technician with ad hominen attacks on their expertise where you have absolutely none, belongs on Twitter, not here where we can all learn from each other.

Steve, good job throwing in a speech about ad hominen attacks despite the fact that the post of mine you quoted doesn't contain any ad hominen attacks. (Although, I have heard that Steve steals candy from children)

Clearly, the problem here is not that I'm particularly attached to Yamaha, but rather that you have an axe to grind against them:
- Your claim that V cast plates are inferior and are chosen by Yamaha to cut costs is hotly disputed by many other posters here
- Your claim that Yamaha use inferior synthetic hammers to cut costs has never been substantiated
- Shigeru Kawai also use V cast but you don't seem to despise them
- Steve, no one can tell a 1% difference. Not that there is any evidence that there is a 1% difference in the first place.

Your claim that Yamaha uses inferior processes and materials to cut costs is only something we can all learn from if it is actually true.

Last edited by Sonepica; 07/26/21 03:11 PM.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
J
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
Originally Posted by Sammy111
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
The Piano Buyer article about plates omits much significant material, such as the influence the cooling rate of the iron alloy in determining the crystal form the carbon takes. The slower it cools, the more the carbon forms as a flat sheet like graphite. The faster the same alloy cools, the more the carbon in it is cubic like diamond.

The "diamond" form is very abrasive to the strings at the termination point as one tunes them.

Retired physicist here. Also, did thesis work for a materials science professor in grad school. The iron-carbon phase diagram is very complicated, but I'm not aware of any hard diamond-like phase of carbon or iron-carbon that forms in cast iron as it cools. The carbon either remains dissolved in the iron, or some of it forms into iron carbide (orthorhombic, not cubic structure) or graphite. I don't think that anyone should be concerned that there are diamond-like abrasive particles in the cast iron frame of a piano because the piano manufacturer chose one casting technique over another.
Microscopic diamond hard shards sharp enough to cut steel in our pianos. Images of skin peeling off our flesh if we were to touch our V-plates. You would think they should at least come with warning stickers.


Working on:
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,551
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,551
Ah, the ad hominem you referred to above. I raised a point about scientific method, not about pianos. If you compare two different pianos that sound different, you don't get to cherry pick to which difference(s) you will decide to attribute the differences. You need a procedure for establishing a given difference as the cause of the overall difference.

If prepping a piano with v-pro plate like an SK-7 and prepping a similar sized Steinway could actually get to a point where you or I could not hear a difference, but a concert artist could, consider that such a tiny difference could be caused by any number of differences between the pianos. Given the impact of differences in hammer felt, scale design, wood used for the soundboard, case design, and model to model variability, your claim would actually more be evidence that plate casting method is irrelevant than that it mattered.


Primary keyboard interests: Early baroque through early romantic repertoire, blues improvisation.
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,551
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,551
I'm still curious if Boston pianos (made by Kawai) have V-Pro plates. I suspect that they do, but that is not mentioned by Steinway dealers when presenting a marketing narrative to a customer.


Primary keyboard interests: Early baroque through early romantic repertoire, blues improvisation.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
J
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
Wet sand casting versus V-pro. Expensive speaker cables versus coat hangers. I think they fall under the same category of comparisons. Can you really hear the difference? In regards to the latter comparison apparently coat hangers are more preferable to those hundreds of dollars speaker cables.

Expensive speaker cables versus coat hangers.


Working on:
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 947
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 947
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Ah, the ad hominem you referred to above. I raised a point about scientific method, not about pianos. If you compare two different pianos that sound different, you don't get to cherry pick to which difference(s) you will decide to attribute the differences. You need a procedure for establishing a given difference as the cause of the overall difference.

If prepping a piano with v-pro plate like an SK-7 and prepping a similar sized Steinway could actually get to a point where you or I could not hear a difference, but a concert artist could, consider that such a tiny difference could be caused by any number of differences between the pianos. Given the impact of differences in hammer felt, scale design, wood used for the soundboard, case design, and model to model variability, your claim would actually more be evidence that plate casting method is irrelevant than that it mattered.

Don't follow. Not my argument anyway. My question, and it's a good one is this. A flagship manufacturer who makes their flagship piano with their non flagship technology does so for a reason, and the only logical reason is performance. They are the only ones who have the resources and desire for these experiments. The ad hominem was not aimed at you, but someone else who called me out by name ans attributed my opinions to emotions not experience. If there truly is a difference in cost with V and sand, it can't be great. A plate pattern is a plate pattern and Yamaha regularly redesigns and retools their CF at enormous costs. Even if it added 5K to the piano, it would not affect sales at that level. For a concert piano to be successful, a manufacturer has to focus on performance and performance only. A successful piano is not going to be made by a manufacturer ignoring a flagship technology to save money. Instead, as they do, they use separate materials, designs, factory and workers just for these pianos. They actually spare no expense, so the argument that they use sand because the V costs so much money doesn't stand scrutiny. There are no tier 1 pianos where the manufacturer uses cost savings over best in class. Since this piano is made in a separate factory with higher quality components by specially skilled workers one can assume they use sand plates because of performance. If they use it to save money, then the question would be, where else do they save money on this piano over using best in class. I don't know and can't know the differences these technologies make. I would at a minimum need to make at least 10 pianos with the only difference being the plate and place them in a selection room and see if one technology statistically is chosen more than the other. The only company I know that could do that would be Yamaha, and my contention on their flagship piano they use the best technology to get the best results and don't believe that they chose to save a few 100 or a few 1000 per piano and took 2nd best or ignored their own proprietary flagship promoted technology. If you and other think that Yamaha chose to save money on their flagship piano, what does that say about Yamaha? The Yamaha I know would do everything possible to make the best possible piano for the best pianists regardless of cost. It's their flagship. No serous company would choose cost savings over performance for this use, and any company that did is not a tier one.

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 669
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 669
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Ah, the ad hominem you referred to above. I raised a point about scientific method, not about pianos. If you compare two different pianos that sound different, you don't get to cherry pick to which difference(s) you will decide to attribute the differences. You need a procedure for establishing a given difference as the cause of the overall difference.

If prepping a piano with v-pro plate like an SK-7 and prepping a similar sized Steinway could actually get to a point where you or I could not hear a difference, but a concert artist could, consider that such a tiny difference could be caused by any number of differences between the pianos. Given the impact of differences in hammer felt, scale design, wood used for the soundboard, case design, and model to model variability, your claim would actually more be evidence that plate casting method is irrelevant than that it mattered.

Don't follow. Not my argument anyway. My question, and it's a good one is this. A flagship manufacturer who makes their flagship piano with their non flagship technology does so for a reason, and the only logical reason is performance. They are the only ones who have the resources and desire for these experiments. The ad hominem was not aimed at you, but someone else who called me out by name ans attributed my opinions to emotions not experience. If there truly is a difference in cost with V and sand, it can't be great. A plate pattern is a plate pattern and Yamaha regularly redesigns and retools their CF at enormous costs. Even if it added 5K to the piano, it would not affect sales at that level. For a concert piano to be successful, a manufacturer has to focus on performance and performance only. A successful piano is not going to be made by a manufacturer ignoring a flagship technology to save money. Instead, as they do, they use separate materials, designs, factory and workers just for these pianos. They actually spare no expense, so the argument that they use sand because the V costs so much money doesn't stand scrutiny. There are no tier 1 pianos where the manufacturer uses cost savings over best in class. Since this piano is made in a separate factory with higher quality components by specially skilled workers one can assume they use sand plates because of performance. If they use it to save money, then the question would be, where else do they save money on this piano over using best in class. I don't know and can't know the differences these technologies make. I would at a minimum need to make at least 10 pianos with the only difference being the plate and place them in a selection room and see if one technology statistically is chosen more than the other. The only company I know that could do that would be Yamaha, and my contention on their flagship piano they use the best technology to get the best results and don't believe that they chose to save a few 100 or a few 1000 per piano and took 2nd best or ignored their own proprietary flagship promoted technology. If you and other think that Yamaha chose to save money on their flagship piano, what does that say about Yamaha? The Yamaha I know would do everything possible to make the best possible piano for the best pianists regardless of cost. It's their flagship. No serous company would choose cost savings over performance for this use, and any company that did is not a tier one.

Steve, no one is claiming that V cast is superior to sand cast, such that one would expect high end pianos to switch to using V cast irrespective of the high cost for low volume pianos. We're just disputing your claim that there is any real evidence that V cast is inferior.

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 407
C
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
C
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 407
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson
If there truly is a difference in cost with V and sand, it can't be great. A plate pattern is a plate pattern and Yamaha regularly redesigns and retools their CF at enormous costs. Even if it added 5K to the piano, it would not affect sales at that level

Not that this is the same thing, but I work for a footwear manufacturer. A full set of sized tooling for a footwear outsole can run into the 10s of thousands of dollars (or more). It would not surprise me to learn that the cost of a single tool for a piano plate is approaching 6 digits.


Yamaha C2X
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,551
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,551
Quote
Don't follow. Not my argument anyway.
It certainly does follow logically from your argument, whether or not you are willing to apply logical reasoning to your argument. Unless you have two otherwise identical pianos except for the plate casting method, you are measuring the aggregate difference between the two pianos when both are hypothetically prepped so that any residual tonal difference can only be heard by a concert artist. All differences between them are on the table as the cause of any differences unless and until some are ruled out, or one or more differences are identified conclusively as the cause. This is a not really disputable, and is a general point about hypothesis testing through experimental design, not a point about pianos.

Quote
My question, and it's a good one is this. A flagship manufacturer who makes their flagship piano with their non flagship technology does so for a reason, and the only logical reason is performance.

No, it is not the only possible reason. It already has been answered upthread. The cost of V-pro and wet sand are inverted when low volume pianos like 9' grands are compared to higher volume pianos.

I don't think you would dispute that a Kawai SK-7 is a premium piano. It has already been pointed out that the SK-7 uses a v-pro plate.


Primary keyboard interests: Early baroque through early romantic repertoire, blues improvisation.
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 429
Full Member
Online Content
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 429
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I'm still curious if Boston pianos (made by Kawai) have V-Pro plates. I suspect that they do, but that is not mentioned by Steinway dealers when presenting a marketing narrative to a customer.
The specs for the GP-193 say vacuum cast.
Boston GP 193 Specs

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,361
H
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
H
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,361
Almaviva, here is an article from Steinway:


"STEINWAY’S STATE-OF-THE-ART PLATE FACTORY

This article originally appeared in THE MUSIC TRADES in November of 2015.

Piano maker invests millions in Ohio plate foundry with plans to supply global production.

In 1999, Steinway & Sons faced a critical manufacturing dilemma. The O.S. Kelly Company of Springfield, Ohio, its sole supplier of piano plates, had just lot key customers including Baldwin, Aeolian, and Wurlitzer and was on the brink of bankruptcy. A tough choice confronted management: abandon its sand cast iron plate, a key component that had distinguished Steinway pianos for almost 150 years, and find a new source of supply overseas; or get into the plate manufacturing business by purchasing O.S. Kelly.

“It was a very tricky decision at the time,” recalls Andrew Horbachevsky, vice president of manufacturing, Steinway & Sons. “With so many of the parts that go into our instruments, we have deep sources of supply, but our sand cast piano plate is so specialized and difficult to make. We couldn’t find any foundries capable of meeting our specifications so we opted to buy O.S. Kelly to protect this key source of supply.”

Piano experts will debate the merits of sand cast piano plates, like those produced by Steinway at the O.S. Kelly factory, verses V-Pro plates, which are commonplace with high-volume Asian producers. “It would have been easy for us to just go to China and get a cheaper V-Pro plate,” offers Horbachevsky. “But our sand caste plate is different, a slower production process that we feel yields a better sound. It’s a critical component.” He adds, “Our cast-iron frame, also called the plate or harp, is responsible for sustaining the massive tension of the strings, which by some measures must support tensions of up to 40,000 pounds. There is no margin for error when you are dealing with this type of tension.”

Ten years after acquiring O.S. Kelly, Steinway again faced a serious impasse. The factory and its team of 50 employees were producing quality plates for both the New York and Hamburg Steinway factories. However, aging equipment and rising costs forced management to again make an important choice: plan for the future and commit millions in capital expenditures or close down the plant and find an offshore plate supplier.

In 2010, management again sided with O.S. Kelly and pledged a commitment to invest in a multi-million dollar capital campaign to modernize the aging factory. The investments, initiated in 2012, are just now coming to a close with the completion of a new 25,000- square-foot factory, state-of-the-art CNC machining center, and high-tech recycling systems that will not only make O.S. Kelly a more environmentally friendly facility but lower operating costs as well.

“Night and day” is an apt description of the new O.S. Kelly facility versus the 19th century shop it replaces. Poorly lit areas with sand-covered floors have been replaced by new brightly lit rooms where operators load molds with a special mix of sand and binders. These molds then move by rail to the casting area where operators fill them with a molten mix of iron that can weigh up to 400lbs if it’s a plate for a Steinway concert grand piano. A new high-tech recycling system now eliminates the need for carting hundreds of thousands of pounds of sand used in creating molds to landfill sites each year. Sand now goes through a heat system where it’s recycled to be used again in creating new molds.

The new systems in place at the O.S. Kelly factory are decidedly different from anything a visitor would see at either of the Steinway factories in New York or Hamburg. Steinway is about woodworking and handcraftsmanship, while O.S. Kelly is all about metallurgy and metal working. “We’re very proud that we have a manufacturing and engineering team that can not only visualize complex systems like this, but make them a reality,” continued Horbachevsky.

Horbachevsky and his Springfield, Ohio-based engineering team are especially proud of their new “school-bus”- sized CNC machining center—which can take a 400 lb. concert grand plate, flip it over, and with 48 computer-controlled tools, drill all the holes for hitch pins, agraffes, and tuning pins—and at the same time, deburr all the sound holes. It’s a proprietary machine with a price tag well north of $1 million that, according to Horbachevsky, “will not only bring a new level of precision but also allow us to expand production and take on additional work.” The plate that emerges from this machine is then ready for the painstaking finishing process that includes a powder coating and sanding followed by two rounds of paint and a final matte satin finish.

Springfield, Ohio at one time was the piano plate capital of the world with nearly one thousand workers producing 250,000 plates per year at O.S. Kelly and the now defunct Wickham Piano Plate company. Although volumes at O.S. Kelly today are much lower, the factory is busy supplying thousands of plates to Steinway’s factories in the U.S. and Hamburg as well as a few other domestic and foreign-based piano manufacturers. Horbachevsky sums up, “The precision we use today would never allow us to return to the volumes of the past, but we now have the capability to not only produce the finest plate in the world, but to expand production as well.”
"

Link to the article:
https://www.steinway-ohio.com/news/in-store-news/steinways-state-of-the-art-plate-factory

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 669
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 669
Originally Posted by Hakki
Piano experts will debate the merits of sand cast piano plates, like those produced by Steinway at the O.S. Kelly factory, verses V-Pro plates, which are commonplace with high-volume Asian producers. “It would have been easy for us to just go to China and get a cheaper V-Pro plate,” offers Horbachevsky. “But our sand caste plate is different, a slower production process that we feel yields a better sound. It’s a critical component.”

Well it's not surprising that Steinway would like to express to the public it's opinion that it's manufacturing methods yield a product which is superior to the "cheap" products produced by its Asian competitors.

Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 40
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 40
It appears that the "V-Pro" or "V-Process" also uses sand just like the "sand casting" technique does. The V-Process just uses some vacuum together with thin plastic films in order to densify the sand in the mold in preparation for casting. Overall the two techniques seem very similar in most respects, and the only apparent difference in the resulting cast iron products should be a slightly rougher surface for those produced by sand casting. Don't see what all the fuss is about or why there should be a noticeable difference in sound quality in the metal piano frames cast by the two different techniques. Seems that the issue should be small potatoes compared to all of the other factors affecting the sound in a piano (e.g, sound board properties, bridge properties, properties and tensions of the strings, etc.)

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,549
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,549
Originally Posted by Almaviva
Don, is wet sand casting used in ALL of the Shigeru Kawai models? If not, which SK models DO use wet sand casting?

Also, what about the EX concert grand? Not the SK-EX, just the EX model?

The Kawai EX and Shigeru SKEX both use wet sand casting, because of the size and the low production volume.
All other Shigeru Kawai pianos use normal V-pro plates for the primary purpose of accuracy and consistency.


Don Mannino, MPA
Kawai America
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,391
L
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,391
Originally Posted by KawaiDon
The Kawai EX and Shigeru SKEX both use wet sand casting, because of the size and the low production volume.
All other Shigeru Kawai pianos use normal V-pro plates for the primary purpose of accuracy and consistency.

I guess the one conclusion we can draw from all this is that top tier pianos get wet sand casting.

Odds are that signifies that wet cast is equal or better then V-Pro.

Good night, sleep well.

Learux.


When you play, never mind who listens to you. R.Schumann.

Casio GP-400

2006 August Förster 215
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,011
E
6000 Post Club Member
Online Content
6000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,011
Don is correct I have never visited a V-process foundry. I have visited a wet sand foundry.

I do have extensive experience machining and filing piano castings, probably more than any other technician since I pioneered reshaping V-bars to a true V-shape around 1977. Feeling how cutting tools interacts with a material give insight no book "learnin" can give.

Don is either ignorant or eliding the significance and variability of the practice of the post casting case hardening methods often applied to the V-bar feature by some piano makers. A very slight difference in case hardening level has a profound affect on tone, tunability and string longevity. This is a powerful indicator that metal hardness of the plate is very significant. It is a significant reason some pianos sound so much worse than others in the same production run.

I have studied the material science regarding this issue and have as a regular visitor to my shop the recently retired chief material scientist of the Boeing company. I have discussed the issues of the metals used in pianos at great length and nothing I have said here is outside the science. My friend has taken samples to the Boeing test lab to help me.

I also suggest to you all that you investigate the significance of longitudinal modes and how the nature of the plate metal and termination points affect their ability to be propagated and coupled to the "normal" transverse modes.

I also urge you to consider how the abrasive nature of a string bearing point affects the behavior and durability of piano wire. Consider that the bulk of the strength in piano wire is in the skin. Just nick the surface of piano wire and slightly bend it at that point a few times and it will break. It is important that the deformation the termination point imposes on the wire does not reduce the break point to the elastic limit of the undeformed wire.

It may well be possible to make a V-process plate that performs as well or even superior to a wet sand cast plate.

But so far my experience with plates that are V-process is they have tone and string durability issues. The same thing can be said about wet sand plates that have highly case hardened U-shaped V-bars.

You can also feel the problem in the way the strings render when tuning. They "stick" to the V-bar and even "ping" when they finally move when tuning.

Folks, I gotta tell you most all piano made or being made have less than ideal string terminations on the plate. The problems extends to agraffe string hole shape as well. In my view this is gross negligence. I have been practicing and preaching this for decades, anybody listening? Anybody care? Or is piano making one big idiotic artsy fartsy fraud.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: toneman1@me.com
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 669
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 669
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Or is piano making one big idiotic artsy fartsy fraud.

I'm not sure that Yamaha and Kawai owners are experiencing a problem with frequent breaking of treble strings. Are you sure you're not getting carried away?

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 947
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 947
Originally Posted by Sonepica
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Or is piano making one big idiotic artsy fartsy fraud.

I'm not sure that Yamaha and Kawai owners are experiencing a problem with frequent breaking of treble strings. Are you sure you're not getting carried away?


Actually, restringing the treble on KGX models is quite common and until now never understood why. Thanks, Ed

Page 4 of 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 17 18

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Kawai upright shortage in Canada?
by DeeZee - 09/19/21 05:55 PM
Korg SV-1 Sustain Pedal problem
by Herwiberde - 09/19/21 02:46 PM
JoJo Siwa's Baldwin grand
by ShiroKuro - 09/19/21 01:50 PM
Opinions on the CA49 for classical piano music only ?
by GaiaImpact - 09/19/21 01:16 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics209,190
Posts3,133,566
Members102,770
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5