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Sebs #3139281 07/20/21 03:26 PM
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I personally use ADAM A5X and I love them, but they are not faultless (no speaker is). The ADAM T7V is a better choice if you have the space and it’s cheaper. Really all ADAM, Genelec, or Neumann monitors are all superbly engineered as are the higher end JBL and I’m sure several others for that matter. I have the ADAM A3X and they don’t have enough bass for piano. Cross them over to a sub that is actually playing the mid bass as well and the are clean. Think >150Hz crossover. Any small speaker will be the same because no available small “woofer” has enough excursion or box size or amplification to counteract it size.

Of course if you’re really serious, in wall monitors would be best and then treat the first reflection points….

I’ve taken frequency response graphs from 0-90 degrees in 11.25 degree steps of a number of speakers and monitors which you can see here: http://dtmblabber.blogspot.com/2011/01/review-of-polar-graphs.html
We tend to hear the first arriving sound to our ears above the Schroeder Frequency of the room and below there we hear the room response. First reflections are also very important no matter what and have various psychoacoustic results.

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Quote
I personally use ADAM A5X and I love them, but they are not faultless (no speaker is). The ADAM T7V is a better choice if you have the space and it’s cheaper. Really all ADAM, Genelec, or Neumann monitors are all superbly engineered as are the higher end JBL and I’m sure several others for that matter. I have the ADAM A3X and they don’t have enough bass for piano. Cross them over to a sub that is actually playing the mid bass as well and the are clean. Think >150Hz crossover. Any small speaker will be the same because no available small “woofer” has enough excursion or box size or amplification to counteract it size.

This is not correct. Many studio subwoofers are designed to crossover at 80Hz and many monitors with 5" drivers have more than enough bass extension to integrate seamlessly with them. Crossing over a subwoofer above 120Hz leads to the bass becoming directional.

Sebs #3139292 07/20/21 04:25 PM
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It’s actually absolutely correct so there. (Kidding of course). In all seriousness, this is why it’s so hard to discuss matters of speakers and acoustics on line. These things are not simple and hard and fast rules often don’t apply exactly—which is why I went into so much detail but was still sufficiently vague about small woofers, box size, excursion capability and amplifier power…. If you’ll search through my blog long enough, you’ll probably figure out that I’m not coming from a position of ignorance or guessing. It’s just that there are way too many variables to go through in a single post. There are several thousand pages written on the subject that I have read and several thousand more available. Yes, many 5” woofers can reach that deep. I use a set of 5” woofers that I don’t filter at all for my DP/VSTs. I use 5” woofers in my home theater as well and they are filtered at 180Hz and you can’t locate the subs at all and I have 4 and they are not firing in phase. My HT bass is deep and tight and I have the graphs to prove it. My hearing is not below average or anything like that and I have no known neurological disorders 😉. Psychoacoustics is just not that simple.

Last edited by Johnny English; 07/20/21 04:27 PM.
Sebs #3139295 07/20/21 04:31 PM
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Oh, if you read what I wrote about the Schroeder Frequency, you’ll get an inkling about what crossing subs isn’t nearly that simple and that’s just the tip. It’s complex to say the least if you are really trying to get the most out of your gear.

This is also why I hesitate to respond to these threads.

Sebs #3139296 07/20/21 04:35 PM
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Blah blah blah. Specs.

I mostly ignore them. The only spec I really need is "do I like them?"

Even if you peruse the other specs, I think you still must consider that.

Sebs #3139302 07/20/21 05:34 PM
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Specs are definitely just specs in the end. No question about it and they are often wrong or vague enough to be useless or worse; misleading. Measurements, though better still, usually have the same shortcomings. Ultimately it definitely comes down to: do you like them for your intended purpose?

The study of psychoacoustics has given us a way to predict if people will like something based on how it measures. Out of the speakers I’ve measured, the relevant psychoacoustics would suggest MOST people would prefer the ADAM ARTist 5, but beneath those, the picture is definitely more fuzzy because of the sheer number of deviations from ideal. I bought the ARTist 5 from a listening session. It turned out that the measurements suggested I should like them best. It’s cool (to me) that such things work out, but ultimately it’s listening that really matters. It’s like buying a piano, car, woman(joke) or whatever. A little hands on experience never hurts, but the more schooled/skilled you are, the better off you’ll likely be in the long run. I have never regretted learning anything.

Last edited by Johnny English; 07/20/21 05:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Johnny English
Oh, if you read what I wrote about the Schroeder Frequency, you’ll get an inkling about what crossing subs isn’t nearly that simple and that’s just the tip. It’s complex to say the least if you are really trying to get the most out of your gear.

This is also why I hesitate to respond to these threads.

Nonetheless, there are studio subwoofers with low and high pass filters set at 80Hz that are designed to integrate with monitors that have 5" drivers and more than adequate bass extension to integrate with such a subwoofer. They work well either with or without a subwoofer.

Studio monitors without much bass below 150 Hz are designed for mixing. The reduced bass extension enhances midrange clarity so that a mix engineer can get the information they need from the mix as they adjust it. The monitors are not intended to be balanced for full range listening.

Last edited by Sweelinck; 07/20/21 05:42 PM.
Sebs #3139325 07/20/21 06:46 PM
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Okay, just adding from my own personal experience…

A few years ago I added a subwoofer to my gigging rig because I was playing left hand bass. Wow, that last octave of power for the bass was transformational. Crossover around 100Hz worked well, as recommended by the speaker mfg.

But…

I also had my keys and vocal going through the system. They both sounded far worse when the subwoofer was added. Noticeably worse. I was using high quality speakers (Turbosound before Behringer). To describe the difference I would say that the 55Hz to 100Hz response from the top speakers alone was much more accurate than those same frequencies when reproduced from the subwoofer.

My solution was to route my keys and vocals only through the full range top speaker. Only the left hand bass and B3 VST went through the sub, with a 100Hz crossover. This was significantly better.

So, to those reading who haven’t experienced subwoofers…

They can add an amazing life to very low frequency material. But you are advised to get a system that is factory designed for traditional sound sources (let’s say down to 65Hz) and then add a sub for the dance music and earthquakes in movies.

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Originally Posted by PianoMan51
Okay, just adding from my own personal experience… ....65Hz) and then add a sub for the dance music and earthquakes in movies.
Sold! "earthquake movies"!


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Sebs #3139347 07/20/21 08:34 PM
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Aaaaand I’m out. Deuces ✌️

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Originally Posted by camperbc
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
...
[quote=camperbc]Stop in one day, and I'll be happy to give you a demonstration.
It's a long way to Tipperary ... and it's a long way to Newfoundland. Maybe someday.

MacMacMac, you should put a Newfoundland trip (and Fogo Island in particular) on your bucket list; there really is no other place quite like it. Here are three different views, all taken right from our windows.

Originally Posted by camperbc
[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by camperbc
[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by camperbc
[Linked Image]

Wow! I'd love to see the music videos of you playing the piano out there much like this cellist did:



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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
This is not correct. Many studio subwoofers are designed to crossover at 80Hz and many monitors with 5" drivers have more than enough bass extension to integrate seamlessly with them. Crossing over a subwoofer above 120Hz leads to the bass becoming directional.

I actually kinda like that effect for some presets, although I don't use it all that often. My sub is on the left of the piano so giving the bass a stronger left bias feels more ... appropriate? ... sometimes if you're in a player perspective. It's not that it's more accurate necessarily. IDK, I suspect this is very much an individual thing.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Blah blah blah. Specs.

I mostly ignore them. The only spec I really need is "do I like them?"

Even if you peruse the other specs, I think you still must consider that.

I was also thinking the specs are confusing and I don't even understand them. I was just wondering if there was a good all around speaker one for piano sounds and one for music/movies but sounds like all monitors have their ups and down and for my use it won't really matter. I think the Focal Shape series are the only ones out there that look nice, I know that's just my opinion and taste, but I'm not sure I want to spend triple for a cosmetic look I prefer.

Sebs #3139444 07/21/21 09:00 AM
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There are lots of speakers that are good for both piano and movies. Ignore the techno-babble. Just trust your ears.

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Originally Posted by Svennig
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
This is not correct. Many studio subwoofers are designed to crossover at 80Hz and many monitors with 5" drivers have more than enough bass extension to integrate seamlessly with them. Crossing over a subwoofer above 120Hz leads to the bass becoming directional.

I actually kinda like that effect for some presets, although I don't use it all that often. My sub is on the left of the piano so giving the bass a stronger left bias feels more ... appropriate? ... sometimes if you're in a player perspective. It's not that it's more accurate necessarily. IDK, I suspect this is very much an individual thing.

If crossed over at 80Hz (standard crossover for studio subwoofers) the subwoofer only contributes anything to notes D2 and lower.

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Originally Posted by Johnny English
Aaaaand I’m out. Deuces ✌️

Here are some 3rd party measured frequency response curves you may want to look at to convince yourself that 5" drivers can produce much lower bass extension than 150Hz:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T9yLUksyFTu8DwtsaUwacoCIpRfmdIzx6vDRPjzfbCg/mobilebasic

Three design techniques are used to enhance bass extension in these monitors:

1. long excursion woofer
2. DSP equalization
3. tuned port cabinet design

Last edited by Sweelinck; 07/21/21 04:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
If crossed over at 80Hz (standard crossover for studio subwoofers) the subwoofer only contributes anything to notes D2 and lower.

Yeah, and at that frequency bass is percieved as omnidirectional (generally speaking). So yes, you get maybe 8 semitones of quasi-directional if crossing over at 120, and at this point the stero separation on the monitors should handle it, so it really shouldn't be a significant effect. Like I said I think it's a personal thing; the sub is at a more obtuse angle than the monitors, so perhaps this add to the setereo separation? IDK. And, as I said, it's only for certain presets. A player perspective works, but a recording perspective - more room mic'd - in a simulated medium/large hall? Doesn't sound right *at all*.

It could also be the HS7s. I do love them, but their lower-end has always had this "sorry boss, this monitor is expecting the sub to kick in" feel. There I do think the T7V's Mac's got are better, or the A5X. But a single A5X is considerably more than what I paid for the pair of HS7s.

Ugh.

Sebs #3139598 07/21/21 06:12 PM
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It's a piano, not a bass guitar! It doesn't do much bass.

Just get some decent monitors with decent bass ... and it'll be plenty good without a subwoofer. And simpler, too.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
It's a piano, not a bass guitar! It doesn't do much bass.

Just get some decent monitors with decent bass ... and it'll be plenty good without a subwoofer. And simpler, too.

Yeh but I’d like to use the set up for more than just piano. But don’t think a sub will hurt. If the sounds I use have no bass not like it’ll matter sub just won’t be used then if I’m using Spotify on computer sure the sub will be used.

I’m just torn between hs5 and focal shape 40. But focal is way more but I’m also big on interior design and and building this as a home office/piano station setup.

Sebs #3139608 07/21/21 08:05 PM
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Corrected text:

If crossed over at 80Hz (standard crossover for studio subwoofers) the subwoofer only contributes minimally to notes D2 and lower.

Quote
It's a piano, not a bass guitar! It doesn't do much bass.

Just get some decent monitors with decent bass ... and it'll be plenty good without a subwoofer. And simpler, too.
Agreed. I should mention that in a small space or small studio, subwoofers can be quite problematic due to standing waves and room resonance. I had to go down the rabbit hole of treating my studio space with bass traps and acoustic panels to achieve acceptable subwoofer integration. Bass traps are expensive unless you have the basic carpentry/woodshop skills to make them. And yes it is a rabbit hole.

This is why I recommend starting with monitors with adequate bass standalone before considering a subwoofer. Studio subwoofers are different beasts from the more common home theater subwoofers. Studio subwoofers are designed to produce the lower octave of music. Many home theater subwoofers are designed to have punchy bass in the 50-60Hz range where human rib cages resonate, to create bass you can feel, which some mistake for deep bass.

In a small untreated space, if you want monitors that are very effective as piano monitors and have deep enough bass for most movie and music applications, I'd suggest JBL 308P's which won't need a subwoofer.

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