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It seems clear, then, that the only real options before us are 1) to find someone selling a quality upright at a deeply discounted price (giving it away, essentially) or 2) to purchase a digital piano. The latter option offers the advantage of near-silent practice, as the availability of practice time on an acoustic will likely be both limited and unpredictable in the near term due to the non-negotiable needs of younger siblings. Perhaps the piano that can be played more frequently and extensively is ipso facto the better choice, even if it should be inferior in some other respects.
To paraphrase an old aphorism:
. . . Any piano that is played, is better than one that isn't.
. Charles --------------------------- PX-350 / Roland Gaia / Pianoteq
Thanks very much, EPW! I think you've correctly identified the crux of the matter. I also appreciate very much what you say about the use of digital pianos up to level 8 exams in Canada.
Don't know if you've checked out these videos, but she's a pretty accomplished pianist and seems to practice mostly on a Yamaha P515. She's also pretty good at responding to questions posted to her videos.
Good luck!
Main battle axe: Yamaha N1 Living room axe: 1999 Petrof III Road axe: Yamaha P515 Office axe: 1927 Kurtzmann upright Neighbor's axe that used to be my axe: Kawai GL10 R.I.P. axe: Kawai MP11SE
It seems clear, then, that the only real options before us are 1) to find someone selling a quality upright at a deeply discounted price (giving it away, essentially) or 2) to purchase a digital piano. The latter option offers the advantage of near-silent practice, as the availability of practice time on an acoustic will likely be both limited and unpredictable in the near term due to the non-negotiable needs of younger siblings. Perhaps the piano that can be played more frequently and extensively is ipso facto the better choice, even if it should be inferior in some other respects.
To paraphrase an old aphorism:
. . . Any piano that is played, is better than one that isn't.
A piano that causes injury is better if it is unplayed. I think a Yamaha P-515 is a risky proposition for a 10-year-old given its heavy action.
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A benefit of a portable piano or stage piano is resale value. Because these also are used for public performance by gigging musicians, they hold their value better than digital pianos embedded in furniture cabinets to look like acoustic pianos.
With a higher budget, a Kawai CA59 or similar competing product from Yamaha or Roland would be the digital step up from the ES920 or FP90X.
A Kawai MP11SE would be similar and also would be good but by the time you add a stand and amplified speakers the cost will be similar and the all-in-one package of the CA59 will be more convenient for a pre-teen.
Beyond that price, I would suggest an acoustic upright. A used acoustic upright is another option in your stated price range, but identifying one suitable for purchase is a more complex process.
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A piano that causes injury is better if it is unplayed. I think a Yamaha P-515 is a risky proposition for a 10-year-old given its heavy action.
Any digital piano features a "heavy action", as there is no real escapement. So they are more exhausting to play than real pianos.
But it's only incorrect technique, that causes injury, and it does so on any weighted action.
Such injury can be avoided by having a competent teacher teach correct technique. Asian parents start their 3 years old children on grand pianos and with correct technique and appropriate repertoire that's perfectly fine.
as part of the forum that you should not take seriously, let me bring a bit of light into the dark:
Sweelinck stated the Yamaha P515 is not suited for younger players. The background of this statement is that the P515-action is said to be heavy. Heavy means the player simply needs more force to press down the keys. And he is afraid, for a 10 years old this could be a problem as the finger strength may be not that developed. This could lead to fatigue at longer playing sessions or in the worst case to injuries.
When Yamaha released the action of the P515 a few years ago (same as CLP645) they were thinking it is a good idea to make it heavy, because real acoustic grand pianos do also have heavy action. Last year with the 645's successor, the CLP745, Yamaha released a new action type and this new one is said to be light/medium. I haven't played any of them, but I trust the internet's opinion about P515=heavy CLP745=medium/light because there seem to be consensus from various sources.
I am not saying light is better nor worse than heavy. It is just different. And if one says, a heavy action is closer to the one of an acoustic grand... Well - different acoustics have different key weights. Some manufacturers are proud to be able to make a quite light action. There are also concert pianists used to 9 foot concert grands. And they say those concert grands have heavy actions because of heavy hammers making very loud noise. But for practicing they prefer smaller studio grands with a lighter action. And there are of course other concert pianists with different opinions.
Originally Posted by JoeT
If I would be you, I wouldn't take any recommendations from this part of the forum seriously.
+1
Originally Posted by JoeT
Go visit a professional music school and ask a proficient piano teacher for their opinion.
+1 Good thing: you already have a music school and those teachers know your daughter.
And most important: let your daughter play it. She can say best if she likes it or not and how this compares the school's pianos. She is playing half of her life. Only one personal advice: People often tend to compare to what is know best and try to find something that comes close to that. In your case with a very old spinet piano, that spinet should not be the reference.
When Yamaha released the action of the P515 a few years ago (same as CLP645) they were thinking it is a good idea to make it heavy, because real acoustic grand pianos do also have heavy action.
First, most (or all?) of Yamaha's mid-range and high-end pianos have heavy actions, and they have been so for decades. (This excludes the high-end Avant Grands and the low-end keyboards with GHS actions.) Downweights in the 80+ gram range are common.
But grand pianos often have downweights in the 50 gram range.
So Yamaha did not decide to give the P515 a heavy action. They decided to put heavy actions into its distant forebears decades earlier, and they continued that practice.
Second, whatever might have motivated these heavy actions, it is certainly not meant to mimic a grand action ... because it doesn't.
So Yamaha did not decide to give the P515 a heavy action. They decided to put heavy actions into its distant forebears decades earlier, and they continued that practice.
Well, here is some speculation going on. We can consider P515 as portable version of CLP645 as they both have exactly same action. But the CLP645 was replaced with CLP745 and in this generation change also the NWX action was replaced by GrandTouch-S(wood). And opposed to NWX, the GrandTouch-S(wood) is considered to be remarkable lighter.
The P515 isn't updated since Yamaha released CLP700 series, and here comes the speculation: Will P515 successor get new GrandTouch-S(wood) action? Will P515 successor keep old NWX? If yes, then why replaced Yamaha that action on their CLP..45 model? Will there be two P515 successors, one with the heavy one with a light action so the customer can decide? I doubt it.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Second, whatever might have motivated these heavy actions, it is certainly not meant to mimic a grand action ... because it doesn't.
To be fair, this is only what I've read here and there. Others stated it is easier to transition from a heavy action to a lighter one that the other way round. So a heavy action prepares the player to switch to any other piano more easily.
Anyway I find it quite interesting that Yamaha left the path of heavy actions towards lighter ones with their newer CLP700 series last year.
Short anecdote: There is a youtube channel of two German piano-testers, deeply connected with thomann (German version of sweetwater if you will) and basically every piano they test is a recommendation for beginners. But when they tested the CLP745, one said the action got remarkably lighter as in the 645 and he is very pleased about that light one. Because he found the CLP645 to be too heavy. So I watched the older test of the 645 and indeed the same person complained about the heavy action. I think, this means something if this statement comes from a "sales"-youtube channel that recommends literally everything to be good.
.... and sometimes the digital vs digital argument might become heated too 🙂
The Yamaha 515 review by concert pianist is a good reference for pianists who admit (paraphrased) “ i like its action and its ____ and its ____ but that is my preference, .... maybe you won’t ....” , either way it demonstrates the quality of DP you can get within your original budget of $2000 or less. You will find Kawai’s and Roland’s competitor models ES920 and FP90X - also state of their respective art for affordable DP - to be good choices, albeit Roland’s is pricier.
If you have time for reading, there is an excellent thread by an admitted beginner pianist who does a thorough hunt/review of “ just the right DP” based mostly on preference for key action, and several good replies, some who corroborate his preference[s]?
A piano that causes injury is better if it is unplayed. I think a Yamaha P-515 is a risky proposition for a 10-year-old given its heavy action.
Any digital piano features a "heavy action", as there is no real escapement. So they are more exhausting to play than real pianos.
But it's only incorrect technique, that causes injury, and it does so on any weighted action.
Such injury can be avoided by having a competent teacher teach correct technique. Asian parents start their 3 years old children on grand pianos and with correct technique and appropriate repertoire that's perfectly fine.
This doesn't change the fact that a heavier action creates more risk of injury than a lighter one if incorrect technique is used. Teachers are not supervising practice sessions. The heavy action just layers on more on top of the lack of escapement of a digital piano.
Last edited by Sweelinck; 07/15/2103:55 PM.
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Many, many thanks to all of you who have replied! These responses have been extremely helpful.
Some updates:
1) Thanks to the generosity of a relative, our budget has increased. $2,500-$3,000 should now be easily within range (and perhaps even a somewhat higher amount).
2) We have just visited a Yamaha dealer. Unfortunately, he had no P515 in stock for my daughter to play (and he expressed his opinion that it would not be the right instrument for her). She was able to play a CLP 745 and another, more expensive piano (I'm ashamed to say thatbIndon't remember what it was, but I think it had a price online of about $4,000 and belonged to a different series). Of the two, she liked the CLP 745 better. Though he didn't have one in the showroom, he recommended the cheaper 735 as essentially equivalent for my daughter's purposes. His prices on both the 735 and the 745 were those currently advertised by Sweetwater.
3) I hope to take my daughter to visit a Kawai dealership and a Roland dealership in the next few days.
Some additional questions:
1) With the increased budget, are there any models that haven't been mentioned that we should look at?
2) To what extent are prices to be negotiated at this price point? I've gotten the impression (perhaps mistaken) that the Sweetwater price (which tends to be significantly below MSRP) represents a good "cheap" price, but I don't know whether that's the correct benchmark.
3) Given the purpose of the piano outlined in my original post, does the Yamaha CLP 745 represent a significant improvement over the 735 that's $800 cheaper? If, after she's "test driven" Kawais and Rolands, she decides that she likes the Yamaha the best (and her teacher approves), is it worth stretching the budget for the 745 (if that's even possible)?
I would add that hand size is a factor. When playing octaves or chords requiring some stretch, a heavy action increases tension and makes it more difficult to maintain proper technique. I'm glad that Yamaha has moved away from using a heavy action in their more recent digital pianos like the CP88 and CLP-745, and presumably the YC88 (which I have not played).
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I would offer less $$. I would say 15% offer or have the price they quoted you include tax. I know it is a sellers market right now but still the MAP price is still way too high in my not so humble opinion
See if you can try a Roland HP704, Kawai CA59 too. I would even try the Kawai CA79 too. Really this is a few $1000 investment. Go make several trips to several stores if need be. Really you will thank us later for doing so.
I will say the Yamaha CLP745 is a nice piano and I would pay the extra money instead of the CLP735. Bonners has a nice video on the two of them.
All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
