2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
74 members (accordeur, 36251, anotherscott, antune, A. Lucato, adamcz, brdwyguy, 13 invisible), 997 guests, and 468 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 11 of 12 1 2 9 10 11 12
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 522
R
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 522
It seems quite clear to me at least that having a beginner's mind and being a beginner are two different things.

On comparing yourself on a percentile basis -- I have never done this, and don't really prefer it. It makes me rather queasy. Sure, I may be in the top 1% in a number of fields. So what? I try to have absolute markers for achievement instead. That is, when you are able to do certain things to a certain degree of fluency. It is very unnerving to think that you're competing for a spot that only 1 in 10000 people are able to get, and I've been in that kind of situation before.

Also, people mentioned that there is no difference in payoff while learning a piece when you are a beginner vs an advanced pianist. I personally think this is ridiculous. When I was a beginner, I heard how poor I was in a lot of ways and was frustrated that my fingers wouldn't comply. Now when I'm a bit further along, I feel like I'm closer to being able to create actual music. It is different and I would argue more meaningful and enjoyable to be thinking about actual musical decisions while playing each piece, thinking about how much you want to use each pedal, where you want to use more finger legato etc. to generate the desired effect, and so on. Instead of just fighting to get your fingers to comply and throw in some pedal ad hoc (or resort to playing frustratingly simple pieces) in the initial stages.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
J
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
The idea that one has to call themself a beginner or "think like a beginner" in order to be always improving, rethinking interpretations, etc. is just wrong. Any serious pianist and certainly virtually all professional pianists have the same characteristics you ascribed to Argerich. I don't think any of them would call themself a beginner.

Almost all people, whatever skill they're talking about, don't rate themself by comparing themself to the best in the world and saying the gap is huge. What they do is think about how they compare in percentile terms(of course, this doesn't mean they even understand what percentile means). l think your thinking on this topic falls into the extreme outlier category.
It's not unusual at all.

Why It's crucial to think like a beginner

Think like a beginner

Don't think like an expert, think like this instead

Think like a beginner

more

more

moreHow a beginner's mindset can help you learn anything

The beauty of the beginner's mind

How to use the beginner's mind to be your best

Approaching data with a Beginner's Mind
Become a better pilot by thinking like a beginner

Why Adults lose the Beginner's mind
Be a better writer by thinking like a beginner

A nice how to from Stanford University re: Beginner's mind
You're totally missing the point again. All serious advanced pianists and certainly professionals have the positive qualities you've mentioned that you associate with "thinking like a beginner". What they don't do is consider themself or call themself a beginner. What I said about your thinking falling in the extreme outlier category applies to my previous sentence and it's a correct description.

I'd add that some of your ideas about the advantage of thinking like a beginners, e.g. being open to new interpretations, are certainly open to debate. I think many or even most beginners don't have the knowledge to do much interpreting or to think about many interpretations. True beginners are mostly concerned with playing the correct notes with the correct rhythms and perhaps following other indications in the score.
Why would a serious professional call themselves a beginner though they approach the piano "thinking like a beginner"? I never said that anyone should be going around calling themselves anything. I don't even call myself a beginner until someone asks. But I definitely feel that way. Why is it necessary for someone to shove down my throat that I'm some sort of expert at the piano when I feel like a beginner. I'm just being honest on how I feel given my experiences and how far I feel I have to go. I'm not a professional, just an amateur and I still play like one.

Last edited by Jethro; 07/10/21 08:36 PM.

Working on:
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
J
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
Originally Posted by ranjit
It seems quite clear to me at least that having a beginner's mind and being a beginner are two different things.
.

Yes they are two different things. There is also a difference between a professional pianist and a student in the RCM/ABRSM program. Being an advanced student in RCM does not make you a professional. It's the first step to college where you learn to develop your skills as a professional- an expert. And then once you an expert, some would say it is wise to maintain a "beginner's mind" and go full circle.

"When are you beyond beginner" - not an easy question to answer.

Last edited by Jethro; 07/10/21 08:41 PM.

Working on:
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,238
S
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,238
Originally Posted by Jethro
Here’s further wisdom on the matter as it applies to music. https://www.nodeadguys.com/a-piano-blog/5-ways-musicians-can-develop-a-beginners-mind

Seems to me like the title of this article is poorly chosen, and like often the case using a catchy summary which is actually not representing what the author is saying. There are also several ideas in there which I think can be challenged. Putting aside their technical abilities, what makes top pianists is also a superior musicality, deep knowledge of music in general and artistic/creative sense. And therefore, they think anything but like a beginner. A beginner does not have the technical ability but also in 99% of the cases the musical background,skills and knowledge to create a thought through interpretation. That is why beginners need teachers. Exploring new ways of playing without skills usually yields poor results.

So to think like a beginner actually makes no sense at all. What the author is simply saying is that we should keep a fresh spirit and the passion of what we do, the ability to explore new ways of playing. Frankly I dont necessarily associate this with beginners. All top pianists/musicians would actually have those characteristics. The article would probably be more directed toward certain representatives of conservative classical world (including the old fashionned audience).

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
J
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by Jethro
Here’s further wisdom on the matter as it applies to music. https://www.nodeadguys.com/a-piano-blog/5-ways-musicians-can-develop-a-beginners-mind

Seems to me like the title of this article is poorly chosen, and like often the case using a catchy summary which is actually not representing what the author is saying. There are also several ideas in there which I think can be challenged. Putting aside their technical abilities, what makes top pianists is also a superior musicality, deep knowledge of music in general and artistic/creative sense. And therefore, they think anything but like a beginner. A beginner does not have the technical ability but also in 99% of the cases the musical background,skills and knowledge to create a thought through interpretation. That is why beginners need teachers. Exploring new ways of playing without skills usually yields poor results.

So to think like a beginner actually makes no sense at all. What the author is simply saying is that we should keep a fresh spirit and the passion of what we do, the ability to explore new ways of playing. Frankly I dont necessarily associate this with beginners. All top pianists/musicians would actually have those characteristics. The article would probably be more directed toward certain representatives of conservative classical world (including the old fashionned audience).
The concept of the beginners mind is nothing new. It has proponents from all walks of life and often professed by highly successful people particularly in the business world but in the arts as well. Did you read some of the links I posted to Plovers?

The crux of the matter is that once one has the mindset of an expert there is a tendency to set limitations of what is possible, to be closed to new ideas, to limit ones own ability to learn something new. The famous quote from Buddhism being, "in the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few."

So in the beginners mind you clear your mind and open it to all sorts of possibilities, ideas, and and new experiences just as a beginner does when learning something new for the first time. Yes all world class pianists DO think like this whether they call it a beginners mind or not. Beginners mind does not suggest you are a “beginner” but rather the opposite- quite advanced but completely open to learn like a beginner.


Working on:
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,238
S
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,238
Originally Posted by Jethro
The concept of the beginners mind is nothing new. It has proponents from all walks of life and often professed by highly successful people particularly in the business world but in the arts as well. Did you read some of the links I posted to Plovers?

The crux of the matter is that once one has the mindset of an expert there is a tendency to set limitations of what is possible, to be closed to new ideas, to limit ones own ability to learn something new. The famous quote from Buddhism being, "in the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few."

So in the beginners mind you clear your mind and open it to all sorts of possibilities, ideas, and and new experiences just as a beginner does when learning something new for the first time. Yes all world class pianists DO think like this whether they call it a beginners mind or not. Beginners mind does not suggest you are a “beginner” but rather the opposite- quite advanced but completely open to learn like a beginner.


Yes I know the approach; As an executive, I had a number of business training on this and other various theories. All of them are more or less applicable. Some are real gimmicks, others are kind of ok. Many are simply oversimplification with catchy titles to attract attention.

As far as Buddhism, it is actually the quote from one master, Shunryu Suzuki, installed in the US. As you may know, there are many different philosophies and interpretations in Buddhism. So we should not present this statement as a core idea, but one statement by one master within one particular interpretation and it also has to be put in perspective of the overall concepts taught by this master. Extracting one sentence, quickly leads to false or oversimplified interpretations.

He also said "When you act, in order not to leave any traces, you should involve your entire body and spirit and focus on what you do. You should do it completely like a bonfire. You should not be a fire with smoke. You should consume yourself completely. If you do not consume yourself completely, a trace of yourself will remain in your activity. Something non completely consummed will remain". I guess we can meditate what that means practically. Philosophical concepts are complex.

I dont think beginners have a particularly open mind, more than experts. The difference is they know little, thus the rational position is to listen. Like if I were to learn golf and the teacher would tell me how to position myself, I am open to listen to him because I know nothing. That does not demonstrate any particular open mindedness. When I know more, I will still listen but more critically. Exercising one's critical ability is essential.

With knowledge we form opinions, but some people can form opinions without any knowledge. Social media are a good demonstration of that. So being a "beginner" does not protect against extreme opinions, nor against vehiculating false ideas. So I think the image is not particularly valid. Just a nice shortcut to keep you reading. It sounds better to say beginner's mind rather than a good old fashionned "Open Mind". Being open minded/curious is a nature of one's character, not the consequence of a given amount of knowledge. We are all prone to more or less dogmatism, irrespective of how much we know. I prefer people who have knowledge and who can rationalize their point of view.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,839
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,839
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
The idea that one has to call themself a beginner or "think like a beginner" in order to be always improving, rethinking interpretations, etc. is just wrong. Any serious pianist and certainly virtually all professional pianists have the same characteristics you ascribed to Argerich. I don't think any of them would call themself a beginner.

Almost all people, whatever skill they're talking about, don't rate themself by comparing themself to the best in the world and saying the gap is huge. What they do is think about how they compare in percentile terms(of course, this doesn't mean they even understand what percentile means). l think your thinking on this topic falls into the extreme outlier category.
It's not unusual at all.

Why It's crucial to think like a beginner

Think like a beginner

Don't think like an expert, think like this instead

Think like a beginner

more
You're totally missing the point again. All serious advanced pianists and certainly professionals have the positive qualities you've mentioned that you associate with "thinking like a beginner". What they don't do is consider themself or call themself a beginner. What I said about your thinking falling in the extreme outlier category applies to my previous sentence and it's a correct description.

I'd add that some of your ideas about the advantage of thinking like a beginners, e.g. being open to new interpretations, are certainly open to debate. I think many or even most beginners don't have the knowledge to do much interpreting or to think about many interpretations. True beginners are mostly concerned with playing the correct notes with the correct rhythms and perhaps following other indications in the score.
Why would a serious professional call themselves a beginner though they approach the piano "thinking like a beginner"? I never said that anyone should be going around calling themselves anything. I don't even call myself a beginner until someone asks.
When I said professionals don't call themselves beginners that means if they're asked. No one goes around talking about their skill level at anything unless the're asked. All serious advanced pianists and professionals have the qualities you associate with thinking like a beginner. Argerich isn't some rare case in what you described about her thinking.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,839
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,839
Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by Jethro
Here’s further wisdom on the matter as it applies to music. https://www.nodeadguys.com/a-piano-blog/5-ways-musicians-can-develop-a-beginners-mind

Seems to me like the title of this article is poorly chosen, and like often the case using a catchy summary which is actually not representing what the author is saying. There are also several ideas in there which I think can be challenged. Putting aside their technical abilities, what makes top pianists is also a superior musicality, deep knowledge of music in general and artistic/creative sense. And therefore, they think anything but like a beginner. A beginner does not have the technical ability but also in 99% of the cases the musical background,skills and knowledge to create a thought through interpretation. That is why beginners need teachers. Exploring new ways of playing without skills usually yields poor results.

So to think like a beginner actually makes no sense at all. What the author is simply saying is that we should keep a fresh spirit and the passion of what we do, the ability to explore new ways of playing. Frankly I dont necessarily associate this with beginners. All top pianists/musicians would actually have those characteristics. The article would probably be more directed toward certain representatives of conservative classical world (including the old fashioned audience).
This is the correct understanding IMO. It might very well be better to suggest thinking like a serious advanced or professional pianist although beginners can't really do that.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 07/11/21 06:27 AM.
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 620
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 620
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by Jethro
What I don’t understand is why people’s worlds fall apart if someone considers themselves a beginner even if they do attempt to play more advanced pieces. Based upon the recent posts in this thread you can’t win regardless of what you do. As a few have been saying it’s all relative. When compared to the concert pianist teachers I work with personally I absolutely consider myself a beginner just starting out my piano journey.

I'm confused. You said that you have played Chopin's Gm Ballade. I've never known a teacher who describes someone who can play this reasonably well as a beginning pianist.
I don't mean to add to anyone's confusion and when I say I feel like a beginner I say it with earnest honesty. I've been saying it's all relative a few posts now but I've not been good at explaining myself. So tried to think of an example and I came up with driving. Most of us I assume remember what it was like to drive a car and many of us can remember when we would consider ourselves beginner drivers. Most of us can drive on city roads and most of us feel fairly comfortable on highways. Some of us can be spirited drivers driving stick shifts and know how to downshift and do heel and toe shifting. We could consider those people to be advanced drivers. I drive a six speed little sports car and one day took it to it's top speed of 140 mph on an empty miles long highway in Florida flanked by empty fields. I held the pedal down to the floor and the car seemed to to stall at 120 mph then I downshifted it to 4th and the engine spooled up to redline and I reached my goal. Yeah I can drive a car just like I can play the piano. Like you I wouldn't call myself a beginner anymore.

But like I said, it's all relative. While I can drive fast on an empty highway doesn't mean I can drive a lap around in an F1 race car without killing myself. That's how I see playing certain classical masterpieces I would like to try before I leave this earth and that is what I am setting my sights on. I'm not talking about being the next Serkin, Richter, Lang Lang or playing to the level of Martha Argerich. I'm just talking about experiencing something somewhat to level of what these musicians experience on a daily level. Many pianists with college degrees in piano can play the same pieces these greats play just as many professional race car drivers can do laps around an F1 course in their sleep. It's their dedication, hard work, practice, and yes talent that allows them to do the things they do. In many ways F1 drivers are similar to accomplished classical pianists whether they be doctoral students or famous concert pianists- they have to have enormous, stamina, hand eye coordination, reflexes, endurance, focus, and most importantly concentration. Yes the physical demands may be different but the mental demands I would say are very much on par. And if you don't think this is the case then like I said you just don't what the demands are to be able play advanced and difficult classical pieces comfortably well- just as an F1 driver can do practice laps around an F1 race course without breaking a sweat. I'm not trying to be the piano equivalent of an F1 driver I'm just want to experience what it feels like to drive a practice lap around an empty track in an F1 race car without killing myself.

If you still don't get it watch these videos. Richard Hammond is a former host of a car show for enthusiasts. He's a pretty good driver test driving exotic sports cars from all over the world at high rates of speed. On the F1 track compared to other F1 drivers wouldn't you call him a beginner. What do you think his "teachers" at the race track would call him? What do you think Richard Hammond thinks of himself as an F1 driver? Hint: nothing above beginner.

F1 drivers like accomplished classical pianists make it look easy:




Here's what a beginner looks like. Sure he knows how to drive a car, but does that really say much?



I get it. Some of you don't want to be F1 drivers and neither do I. Some of you just want to learn how to drive a car and you are just beginning your lessons. All race car drivers had to start there as well, but at some point in their learning they had to become "beginners" once again if they wanted to take their passion to an all new level. Like I've been saying it's all relative. Professionals can make anything look easy but when you actually walk in their shoes you start to understand what's really required to succeed. That's kind of where I'm at in my piano journey. The real beginning. I'm a beginner and no, I don't like I can cut it yet in fact in many ways I feel as foolish as Richard Hammond in that video above. Like I said, I'm not trying to be the piano equivalent of an F1 driver I'm just want to experience what it feels like to drive a practice lap around an empty track in an F1 race car without killing myself.

I'd quite like to complete the F1/Richard Hammond analogy with this story, which I remember pretty well at the time:

"On the 20th of September 2006, Richard Hammond was seriously injured in a car crash while filming for Top Gear at the former RAF Elvington airfield near York. He was driving a jet-powered car, the Vampire dragster, which was theoretically capable of travelling at speeds of up to 370mph (595.5 km/h), when one of the tyres unexpectedly failed on a structural level and caused the Vampire to lose control, before rolling over to its demise. Though unintentional, the Vampire's destruction meant it was one of 166 vehicles destroyed throughout the first 21 series of Top Gear. Despite the significance of the accident, it became something of an in-joke on the series in the years that followed."

https://topgear.fandom.com/wiki/Hammond%27s_Vampire_Dragster_Crash

Just to make light of the subject, and in the nature of the Top Gear presenters, be careful when attempting piano pieces above your level as they could cause a crash and brain injury!

Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 722
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 722
Originally Posted by fatar760
Just to make light of the subject, and in the nature of the Top Gear presenters, be careful when attempting piano pieces above your level as they could cause a crash and brain injury!

laugh
If not a crash/brain injury, it will certainly result in severe stress, demotivation and mental fatigue, for me. I already am an OCD so that doesn't help either.


A man must love a thing very much if he practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practice it without any hope of doing it well. Such a man must love the toils of the work more than any other man can love the rewards of it.
G. K. Chesterton
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
J
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by Jethro
Here’s further wisdom on the matter as it applies to music. https://www.nodeadguys.com/a-piano-blog/5-ways-musicians-can-develop-a-beginners-mind

Seems to me like the title of this article is poorly chosen, and like often the case using a catchy summary which is actually not representing what the author is saying. There are also several ideas in there which I think can be challenged. Putting aside their technical abilities, what makes top pianists is also a superior musicality, deep knowledge of music in general and artistic/creative sense. And therefore, they think anything but like a beginner. A beginner does not have the technical ability but also in 99% of the cases the musical background,skills and knowledge to create a thought through interpretation. That is why beginners need teachers. Exploring new ways of playing without skills usually yields poor results.

So to think like a beginner actually makes no sense at all. What the author is simply saying is that we should keep a fresh spirit and the passion of what we do, the ability to explore new ways of playing. Frankly I dont necessarily associate this with beginners. All top pianists/musicians would actually have those characteristics. The article would probably be more directed toward certain representatives of conservative classical world (including the old fashioned audience).
This is the correct understanding IMO. It might very well be better to suggest thinking like a serious advanced or professional pianist although beginners can't really do that.
People don’t realize I wear a fire suit when I play the piano. I’m covered.


Working on:
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
J
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by Jethro
The concept of the beginners mind is nothing new. It has proponents from all walks of life and often professed by highly successful people particularly in the business world but in the arts as well. Did you read some of the links I posted to Plovers?

The crux of the matter is that once one has the mindset of an expert there is a tendency to set limitations of what is possible, to be closed to new ideas, to limit ones own ability to learn something new. The famous quote from Buddhism being, "in the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few."

So in the beginners mind you clear your mind and open it to all sorts of possibilities, ideas, and and new experiences just as a beginner does when learning something new for the first time. Yes all world class pianists DO think like this whether they call it a beginners mind or not. Beginners mind does not suggest you are a “beginner” but rather the opposite- quite advanced but completely open to learn like a beginner.


Yes I know the approach; As an executive, I had a number of business training on this and other various theories. All of them are more or less applicable. Some are real gimmicks, others are kind of ok. Many are simply oversimplification with catchy titles to attract attention.

As far as Buddhism, it is actually the quote from one master, Shunryu Suzuki, installed in the US. As you may know, there are many different philosophies and interpretations in Buddhism. So we should not present this statement as a core idea, but one statement by one master within one particular interpretation and it also has to be put in perspective of the overall concepts taught by this master. Extracting one sentence, quickly leads to false or oversimplified interpretations.

He also said "When you act, in order not to leave any traces, you should involve your entire body and spirit and focus on what you do. You should do it completely like a bonfire. You should not be a fire with smoke. You should consume yourself completely. If you do not consume yourself completely, a trace of yourself will remain in your activity. Something non completely consummed will remain". I guess we can meditate what that means practically. Philosophical concepts are complex.

I dont think beginners have a particularly open mind, more than experts. The difference is they know little, thus the rational position is to listen. Like if I were to learn golf and the teacher would tell me how to position myself, I am open to listen to him because I know nothing. That does not demonstrate any particular open mindedness. When I know more, I will still listen but more critically. Exercising one's critical ability is essential.

With knowledge we form opinions, but some people can form opinions without any knowledge. Social media are a good demonstration of that. So being a "beginner" does not protect against extreme opinions, nor against vehiculating false ideas. So I think the image is not particularly valid. Just a nice shortcut to keep you reading. It sounds better to say beginner's mind rather than a good old fashionned "Open Mind". Being open minded/curious is a nature of one's character, not the consequence of a given amount of knowledge. We are all prone to more or less dogmatism, irrespective of how much we know. I prefer people who have knowledge and who can rationalize their point of view.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read points of views in these forums that are very rigid and not receptive to new ideas whether it be about self learning versus RCM/ABRSM, grading systems as exemplified in this very thread, teaching styles and other topics oftentimes dogmatically preached by some of the self proclaimed experts. Holding steadfastly to ones point of view while not being open to others stunts ones growth. There’s a lot of great points of view in this thread alone that we can all learn from with open discussion. I’ve actually learned more about myself and how I approach learning the piano by discussing these things. To me, it’s all good.


Working on:
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,408
F

Silver Supporter until Jan 02 2013
2000 Post Club Member
Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 02 2013
2000 Post Club Member
F
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,408
+1 from me.

I don’t think beginners or not beginners distinctions are so important. Playing musically is what matters. I attend community college located in underprivileged area. I sometimes see someone who is incredibly musical among those who just started playing, say within a year. I’m not talking about geniuses or prodigies. Typically young men and women whose parents could not afford expensive lessons. I got years of musical lessons and I recognize musicality when I hear it. My hats off to those people. In terms of piano playing years, I’m not a beginner but it really does not matter.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,839
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,839
Originally Posted by Jethro
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read points of views in these forums that are very rigid and not receptive to new ideas whether it be about self learning versus RCM/ABRSM, grading systems as exemplified in this very thread, teaching styles and other topics oftentimes dogmatically preached by some of the self proclaimed experts. Holding steadfastly to ones point of view while not being open to others stunts ones growth. There’s a lot of great points of view in this thread alone that we can all learn from with open discussion. I’ve actually learned more about myself and how I approach learning the piano by discussing these things. To me, it’s all good.
So since you've stuck to your opinion on this thread, does that mean you're "rigid, unreceptive, and preach dogmatically"?

I think what Sidokar said is correct:
"With knowledge we form opinions, but some people can form opinions without any knowledge. Social media are a good demonstration of that. So being a "beginner" does not protect against extreme opinions, nor against vehiculating false ideas. So I think the image is not particularly valid. Just a nice shortcut to keep you reading. It sounds better to say beginner's mind rather than a good old fashionned "Open Mind". Being open minded/curious is a nature of one's character, not the consequence of a given amount of knowledge. We are all prone to more or less dogmatism, irrespective of how much we know. I prefer people who have knowledge and who can rationalize their point of view."

It's very possible that the more experienced a pianist is the more likely they have an open mind about musical issues. They definitely have more knowledge than a beginner to base their opinions on.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 07/12/21 11:18 AM.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
J
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Jethro
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read points of views in these forums that are very rigid and not receptive to new ideas whether it be about self learning versus RCM/ABRSM, grading systems as exemplified in this very thread, teaching styles and other topics oftentimes dogmatically preached by some of the self proclaimed experts. Holding steadfastly to ones point of view while not being open to others stunts ones growth. There’s a lot of great points of view in this thread alone that we can all learn from with open discussion. I’ve actually learned more about myself and how I approach learning the piano by discussing these things. To me, it’s all good.
So since you've stuck to your opinion on this thread, does that mean you're rigid, unreceptive, and preach dogmatically?
Pianoloverus I'm open and receptive to everyone's opinions. My stuck opinion is to remain open to everyones opinions including yours. If that's dogmatic preaching then I'm guilty. I hear what you are saying. It's all good.

Last edited by Jethro; 07/12/21 11:19 AM.

Working on:
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
J
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
Originally Posted by FarmGirl
+1 from me.

I don’t think beginners or not beginners distinctions are so important. Playing musically is what matters. I attend community college located in underprivileged area. I sometimes see someone who is incredibly musical among those who just started playing, say within a year. I’m not talking about geniuses or prodigies. Typically young men and women whose parents could not afford expensive lessons. I got years of musical lessons and I recognize musicality when I hear it. My hats off to those people. In terms of piano playing years, I’m not a beginner but it really does not matter.
I agree. Good thoughts.


Working on:
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
J
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Jethro
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read points of views in these forums that are very rigid and not receptive to new ideas whether it be about self learning versus RCM/ABRSM, grading systems as exemplified in this very thread, teaching styles and other topics oftentimes dogmatically preached by some of the self proclaimed experts. Holding steadfastly to ones point of view while not being open to others stunts ones growth. There’s a lot of great points of view in this thread alone that we can all learn from with open discussion. I’ve actually learned more about myself and how I approach learning the piano by discussing these things. To me, it’s all good.
I think what Sidokar said is correct:
"With knowledge we form opinions, but some people can form opinions without any knowledge. Social media are a good demonstration of that. So being a "beginner" does not protect against extreme opinions, nor against vehiculating false ideas. So I think the image is not particularly valid. Just a nice shortcut to keep you reading. It sounds better to say beginner's mind rather than a good old fashionned "Open Mind". Being open minded/curious is a nature of one's character, not the consequence of a given amount of knowledge. We are all prone to more or less dogmatism, irrespective of how much we know. I prefer people who have knowledge and who can rationalize their point of view."

It's very possible that the more experienced a pianist is the more likely they have an open mind about musical issues. They definitely have more knowledge than a beginner to base their opinions on.
PL, being opened-minded doesn't mean you need to agree with everything someone tells you. That could be disastrous as we have seen in recent times regarding much that's going on in the world. I agree with Sidokar, I prefer people who have knowledge and who can rationalize their point of view". That's what we are trying to do here with these courteous debates, and explanations for our points of view. It's not for me to tell anyone what to believe in. I'm just sharing my opinion(s). As long as no one's opinions are suppressed and these opinions are shared and received in a respectful manner it's all good.

Last edited by Jethro; 07/12/21 11:44 AM.

Working on:
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,839
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 30,839
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think what Sidokar said is correct:
"With knowledge we form opinions, but some people can form opinions without any knowledge. Social media are a good demonstration of that. So being a "beginner" does not protect against extreme opinions, nor against vehiculating false ideas. So I think the image is not particularly valid. Just a nice shortcut to keep you reading. It sounds better to say beginner's mind rather than a good old fashionned "Open Mind". Being open minded/curious is a nature of one's character, not the consequence of a given amount of knowledge. We are all prone to more or less dogmatism, irrespective of how much we know. I prefer people who have knowledge and who can rationalize their point of view."

It's very possible that the more experienced a pianist is the more likely they have an open mind about musical issues. They definitely have more knowledge than a beginner to base their opinions on.
PL, being opened-minded doesn't mean you need to agree with everything someone tells you. That could be disastrous as we have seen in recent times regarding much that's going on in the world. I agree with Sidokar, I prefer people who have knowledge and who can rationalize their point of view". That's what we are trying to do here with these courteous debates, and explanations for our points of view. It's not for me to tell anyone what to believe in. I'm just sharing my opinion(s). As long as no one's opinions are suppressed and these opinions are shared and received in a respectful manner it's all good.
But a few posts ago you criticized posters who had strong opinions on topics and said they were "rigid, unreceptive, and preached dogmatically" i.e. not open minded.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 07/12/21 02:13 PM.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
J
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,682
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Jethro
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think what Sidokar said is correct:
"With knowledge we form opinions, but some people can form opinions without any knowledge. Social media are a good demonstration of that. So being a "beginner" does not protect against extreme opinions, nor against vehiculating false ideas. So I think the image is not particularly valid. Just a nice shortcut to keep you reading. It sounds better to say beginner's mind rather than a good old fashionned "Open Mind". Being open minded/curious is a nature of one's character, not the consequence of a given amount of knowledge. We are all prone to more or less dogmatism, irrespective of how much we know. I prefer people who have knowledge and who can rationalize their point of view."

It's very possible that the more experienced a pianist is the more likely they have an open mind about musical issues. They definitely have more knowledge than a beginner to base their opinions on.
PL, being opened-minded doesn't mean you need to agree with everything someone tells you. That could be disastrous as we have seen in recent times regarding much that's going on in the world. I agree with Sidokar, I prefer people who have knowledge and who can rationalize their point of view". That's what we are trying to do here with these courteous debates, and explanations for our points of view. It's not for me to tell anyone what to believe in. I'm just sharing my opinion(s). As long as no one's opinions are suppressed and these opinions are shared and received in a respectful manner it's all good.
But a few posts ago you criticized posters who had strong opinions on topics and said they were "rigid, unreceptive, and preached dogmatically" i.e. not open minded.
PL, I WANT people to have strong opinions on topics and more than anything I would want them to hold their ground and convince me about their point of view. I've engaged you in several conversations over the past few months and while we don't always agree, I respect your point of view. I won't suppress other people's ideas, or tell them to stop, or go away, or shut up in not so many words, or harrass them- that's being rigid, dogmatic, not open minded. I've seen people who I think mean well in their posts criticized and basically interrogated for just sharing a thought or asking a simple question. (Trust me, that happened to me not too long ago) We can all be better than that. I'm watching another thread as we speak and I'm just amazed at the depths some go to cause trouble and make other innocent new posters feel unwelcome on these boards through their collateral damage. It's sad to watch, but I'm not going to engage in it because it will just cause more trouble. People really need to learn to be nice to others. For godsakes it's a piano forum!

Last edited by Jethro; 07/12/21 06:18 PM.

Working on:
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 16
W
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
W
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 16
if you're asking that question then that's how you know you are still a beginner, simple as that. :P


mainly play metal/rock on guitar. mainly classical on (weighted) digital piano, but also interested in jazz/gospel/pop piano styles.
Page 11 of 12 1 2 9 10 11 12

Moderated by  BB Player 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Kawai upright shortage in Canada?
by DeeZee - 09/19/21 05:55 PM
Korg SV-1 Sustain Pedal problem
by Herwiberde - 09/19/21 02:46 PM
JoJo Siwa's Baldwin grand
by ShiroKuro - 09/19/21 01:50 PM
Opinions on the CA49 for classical piano music only ?
by GaiaImpact - 09/19/21 01:16 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics209,192
Posts3,133,587
Members102,770
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5