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@Curt-S: Retailers generally don't quote prices over the phone (except for the low-end, mass market pianos).

So if I get a quote about 15% under MSRP, but also got the same number from another store… is there another % discount I can still bargain? Or is that probably the best price?

What's the MSRP? I've seen a few numbers given but I have no idea is Kawai US even has an MSRP?

MSRP is (a) nebulous and (b) ridiculous. So it's best ignored.
Dealer quotes are also to be ignored.

Why? Because looking at those prices puts you in the disadvantageous position of trying to lower the dealer's price.
I prefer to make the offer, starting very low ... and then (maybe) allow the dealer to try to raise my price. That turns the situation around 180 degrees.

So I think it's better to look at what others have paid. I like to be the guy that gets a price as low as anyone else ever has. So find the lowest price and make that your offer.
BTW ... don't try to compare prices in the US with those in other countries. It doesn't work.

Until now I am unable to get Kawai to acknowledge that the current damper spring strength they use for NV-10/10(S) is excessively hard. It is harder than Kawai acoustic grands and uprights, also harder than most other brand acoustics, and also harder than many digitals in the market across many brands.

For the company to avoid justifying their design and not offer to do this simple and cheap fix for the customer, and instead relying on the customer to DIY, is uncalled for. This is an under $10 spring with an easy method to replace when a technician does it.

I estimate the correct strength of spring compared to industry is about 60-75% of what's currently used by Kawai. Some might prefer a soft 50% strength but I'm comparing with most pianos in market.

The prices paid spreadsheet has an NV5, not S, at 7400. But it’s also a floor model. Wonder where I can shoot versus that for new and an S model. 8495 seems to be the standard dealer offer. 9999 is the MSRP. I wonder what the dealers pay?

Many people have wondered here about dealer’s cost..... similar to the way some people negotiate when buying a new car .... any potential buyer who knows therefore also knows a fair $$ amount to offer the dealer so that A) dealer makes a fair profit and B) buyer gets a fair deal. However, the big brand manufacturers have done well keeping this info from reaching buyers, they keep tight reigns on dealers/sellers plugged into distribution channels in this respect and some sellers appear to have a way of persuading buyers to not disclose the particulars of their deal. This is probably one reason why the prices-paid thread occasionally indicates purchases with fuzzy numbers posted and sometimes reluctance of given buyers to indicate their seller’s name/location. Among other things, this all makes it easier to rationalize why buyers in America generally pay (percentage wise) much higher than what is customary for our friends on the other side of the pond ....trade-import-export-tax-duty-fee-tip-delivery-rust-proofing shipping costs, you see?😐

A good example is that one of our PW members was able to buy an NV10 for about $8000/$8500. (IIRC). That is the same store that I paid $9750 plus tax for a NV10. Originally I almost paid $12,000 for it. I learned the hard way that my initial Kawai store, where I purchased four pianos, was over-charging me every time. Including fleecing me on the trade-in on each upgrade. A new buyer walks into a piano store filled with expensive and beautiful grands and uprights with the impression this is a classy business. They sell $100,000 pianos after all. They have a huge inventory! He just wants to buy a $2000 DP. Why do they rip him off? Until the buyer "gets it", he keeps going back for the same great service they provide. But once he does "get it" he will only go back to offer a low ball price. Then go elsewhere and have another dealer match it. I will not buy from either of these two dealerships again.

I have another story: When I was waiting for my second malfunctioning NV10 to be replaced, I visited a Yamaha store. I had just visited the local Kawai store and played around on some of the grands there. I was interested in the NU1x and played around with it for awhile. I had no intention to buy anything. The lady at the store told me the NU1x was $5500 when I first came in. Then I tried the cheaper silent pianos, and the N1, N2, etc. The second time I sat down at the NU1 she said she could "maybe" give me a better price. Long story short, when I said thank you and good bye, she whispered "$4300." I smiled and told her I would think about it.

I don't like dealer offers. I prefer to ignore them. I like to set the price myself by making an offer.

The N1X is still at the top of my list. But I've not eliminated consideration of the NV10. We'll see.

But first ... shops have to have stock.
Right now they don't. So right now I won't.

In the future there are no dealers....

Hello,


Actually, that's up to us!

Cheers and happy local business support,

HZ

I just don’t want to throw a number out so low I insult or don’t look serious. Seems like a lot are getting good deals around 30-35% off MSRP the high end DPs…. But that’s just a quick scan and sloppy math

If it were up to me, we’d have no dealers!

I hate this ‘support your local dealer’ mentality; as if we’re talking about saints here. These people make a living ripping off unsuspecting customers and I’m supposed to support them? No!

This also applies to car dealers; as a matter of fact the only reason car dealers exist is because they have spent millions to prevent online-vendors from doing business, and it has paid off. As we stand now, ‘online’ car sales are only permitted for used cars, but if you want a new car you’re stuck with dealers.

Once this BS ‘law’ changes and we can buy any brand (new) online, brick and mortar dealers will disappear. I can’t wait for that day, and if I were to buy a car now I’d go used simply to avoid setting foot in h.e.l.l (dealership)!

Who ever was ripped off by a piano dealer? I purchased my piano at such a dealer. I paid the AGREED UPON price and he delivered the AGREED UPON piano. There was no rip off.
(After I left the showroom I confirmed that my wallet was still in my pocket, and my watch was still on my wrist. There was no rip off.)

I suspect others have had the same experience.

As for supporting the local dealer ... there's value in having local shops at which to audition pianos before buying. I could never buy a sight-unseen, keys-unfelt, sound-unheard piano from Amazon.

I can be comfortable buying known items from online retailers. Amazon WD-40 is just as good as Home Depot WD-40.

But an Amazon piano? Never.

Okay, so ‘rip-off’ is a bit too much, but surely we must agree that they will beat-up unsuspecting customers based on this scheme they call MSRP.

Mac might be able to get a decent deal, but if the dealer smells fear (newbie) he/she will pounce on that there victim and end up charging 17K for an N3X because, after all, “it’s a great price; I’m dropping 5K from the MSRP….”

Of course, based on the inflated -MSRP- price this seems like a great deal to the unsuspecting customer, but it’s all BS, and in reality the N3X is not worth more than 11/12K!

And I advise, be careful in how you ‘let them know’ that you know what’s going on because if you’re not tactful-enough they act offended and won’t sell you anything, “get out of my store,” or even worse, they will ask for the full MSRP (22K for the N3X) just to show you who’s the boss!

I think I started this dealer bashing. That wasn’t my intention. I will only buy from a dealer. Never would I buy a piano on-line. The dealer offers a service I am willing to pay for. However, they should make a “fair” profit from all their customers. The lesson I meant to convey was to shop around.

There is a rule of thumb formula that has been posted many times before, i have not seen it quoted in a while but as i recall it may start with an offer somewhere around 25 to 50 percent below MSRP, so, do not be skittish about throwing out a number that might insult or imply lack of seriousness..... your prospect for getting a deal or fleeced might depend on this.

PS. I do not believe it constitutes bashing when its really about voicing observations but either way, i’ll take the blame.

No, it was my post that caused the thread to move in that direction. I simply meant that I, for one, didn't realize that piano dealers were operated like car dealerships. If I had known I would have saved a lot of money over my 7 year piano journey. Now I won't likely ever be buying another piano.

Why is that, Tom? Hopefully it's not because you feel soured by having to deal with dealers? Or is it because the NV-10 is everything you need?