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Also, which mics are you using. There are so many to choose from

Ron

Originally Posted by ronlefebvre
Originally Posted by SeaDrive
Can't say as I've noticed this "piano is in another room" effect.

You can definitely change the "in your face"-ness of the piano sound by changing the placement of the microphones, but if you select any of the presets that use a "player" setup (i.e. two microphones, in front of the piano, one to the left and one to the right of the player's head), the piano sound is clear, distinct and very much "in the room", if not in your face.

It's probably my lack of experience with "real" pianos that makes me find Pianoteq so satisfying, but... whatever floats your boat! smile

Is this the Ipad version. Cause there is no such thing as a player setup on the version I have.

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Originally Posted by ralphiano
Originally Posted by peterws
Distant? Never!!
Pianoteq Standard immediately corrects the biggest weakness of Stage.
It's inability to conduct individual note volume control.

Thank you for your persistence, peterws. You have mentioned this numerous times over the last year, but I had never succeeded in finding this facility. Today, I finally located it, and walked through its preliminary steps.

I have a little skepticism, though, as I have not yet noticed any uneveness in the volume levels of my Pianoteq pianos. So, I haven't yet felt the need to do note-by-note volume adjustments.

Forgive my persistence. smile Some really aren't aware of this info, so it's a little service to them if not to yourself. However, I just don't embrace the idea of guys coming along, rubbishing that which is essentially very good to many of us here. Nothing personal you understand: the danger is, of course, Moddart might well take notice of such stuff, and wreck what they're doing so well, which is emulating a chosen grand/upright piano in all its natural glory, c/w perfect imperfections.
The room it's located in may well play a part in this.

Last edited by peterws; 07/10/21 12:42 PM.

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Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Which version of Pianoteq allows you to change microphone placement?

All versions, Mac!

Not quite wrong there. For Stage, most presets have different microphone placements.

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Originally Posted by Ralphiano
. . . right in front of the pianist. . .

If you want that, especially with headphones, try setting the Output mode to Binaural (whether Stage or Standard).

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Originally Posted by Ralphiano
The 'distant' experience I speak of is similar to how that piano sounds when you are still several steps down the hall from the piano room, or still one corner away from the piano room.

I would have thought increasing volume would help in this case. Out of curiosity , what's your velocity values when you play something normally (mp/mf), with the distant sound?

eg.
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I just played the opening several measures of Clementi Sonatina Op.36, no.1, mvmt 1. MIDI values ranged from 48 to 76.

I have the Volume slider at 0db, and the Dynamics slider at 75db.

On a possibly related note, I have difficulty playing softly enough to get the vertical note lines in the velocity curve window to get below about 45 or so, no matter how softly I play. So, I have wondered about MIDI calibration, but, don't fully understand it. I use a straight line Velocity curve with its terminal ends at 8,0 and 118,127. I've clipped the ends off the curve since I cannot play that low or high velocities.


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Originally Posted by ronlefebvre
Originally Posted by SeaDrive
... if you select any of the presets that use a "player" setup (i.e. two microphones, in front of the piano, one to the left and one to the right of the player's head)...

Is this the Ipad version. Cause there is no such thing as a player setup on the version I have.

I'm referring to a microphone setup with one microphone to the left and one microphone to the right of where the player's head would be, sitting at the piano, as a "player setup".

You can see one of these if you select a "Player" preset, such as:

- NY Steinway D Player Clean
- HB Steinway D Player Clean
- C. Bechstein DG Player
- YC5 Player

Sorry for the confusion!


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Originally Posted by ronlefebvre
Also, which mics are you using. There are so many to choose from

I'm using whichever mic's are used by the selected preset. In the case of the NY Steinway D Player Clean preset, they're both U87-cardio.


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I've just had a thought. I wonder if the users that play Pianoteq with headphones only are the ones that don't notice the 'distance' issue.
I play mostly through speakers, and it's definitely apparant to me, especially when I load up any other VST and compare it with Pianoteq.
All my other VST's are very much 'in your face, in the room'.

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I almost never use headphones, so... that's not it.

Those of you who have PTQ 7 and the C. Bechstein DG instrument pack, who think that all PTQ pianos sound like they're in another room, please do me a favor. Pull up the C. Bechstein DG Player preset and play a couple dozen notes, from low to mid to high.

If that sound is not "in your face, in the room", well... there must be something very different about our setups.

On my VPC1 with my PreSonus Eris 3.5" speakers, I can practically feel the hammers hitting the strings. Its presence is palpable...


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Originally Posted by OU812
I've just had a thought. I wonder if the users that play Pianoteq with headphones only are the ones that don't notice the 'distance' issue.
I play mostly through speakers, and it's definitely apparant to me, especially when I load up any other VST and compare it with Pianoteq.

I've had that same thought. I only use headphones when dictated by the need for quiet for others. And, that is usually serious practice time, and not a time when I am tinkering with the sound quality. 95% of my playing is through an amplifier and speakers, and it is through the speakers that I notice the distant sound.

Originally Posted by SeaDrive
I almost never use headphones, so... that's not it.

Those of you who have PTQ 7 and the C. Bechstein DG instrument pack...

To me, the Bechstein DG is the clearest and most present piano in the Pianoteq stable. So, you may not be experiencing the "distant" problem as much as others who use different pianos. Most of my playing since the arrival of 7.3 has been on the Petrof Mistral. To me, its sound is not as clear and unclouded as the Bechstein. Yet, the Mistral is one of the clearest among the rest, to my ear.

So, I think by playing the Bechstein, you may not be experiencing much of the "distant" sound I am concentrating on.

In fact, one of the factors driving this current examination is my desire to obtain the Bechstein. I had already decided to get it. But, before doing so, I want to determine whether I want to buy just the instrument ($59), or upgrade to STANDARD with the Bechstein as the included piano pack ($149). My hope is that I can find settings that reduce the distant nature of the ;pianos I already have (Steinway 2 pack, Petrof 2 pack, and K2). If STANDARD can work the desired improvement in those Petrofs, I will upgrade to STANDARD and then have a nice selection of very satisfying pianos (NY Steinway D, Hamburg D, Ant. Petrof 275, Petrof Mistral, and the lovely Bechstein).

By reminding me of the clarity of the Bechstein, you activated my curiosity about which pianos are the most and least 'present' among the Pianoteq offerings. So, I just spent an hour or so playing them with what I though were the most default-like presets, and ranking them according to their clarity or presence. From best to worst, here are my personal results:

1. Bechstein DG D 282
2. NY Steinway Model D
3. Petrof 284 Mistral
4. (tie) YC5 Basic, and Hamburg Steinway Model D
6. Steingraeber E 272
7. Ant. Petrof 275
8. Grotian Concert Royal
9. K2 Basic
10. Grand Steinway B
11. Bluethner Model One

As much as anything, what I am searching for right now is a way, through the additional facilities of STANDARD, to improve the 'presence' of those Petrofs, particularly the Mistral.


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Originally Posted by SeaDrive
I almost never use headphones, so... that's not it.

Those of you who have PTQ 7 and the C. Bechstein DG instrument pack, who think that all PTQ pianos sound like they're in another room, please do me a favor. Pull up the C. Bechstein DG Player preset and play a couple dozen notes, from low to mid to high.

If that sound is not "in your face, in the room", well... there must be something very different about our setups.

On my VPC1 with my PreSonus Eris 3.5" speakers, I can practically feel the hammers hitting the strings. Its presence is palpable...

So cool. Never tried the player modes before. Also, if that is not enough...just move the mics right over the keyboard.

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Originally Posted by Ralphiano
I just played the opening several measures of Clementi Sonatina Op.36, no.1, mvmt 1. MIDI values ranged from 48 to 76.

I have the Volume slider at 0db, and the Dynamics slider at 75db.

On a possibly related note, I have difficulty playing softly enough to get the vertical note lines in the velocity curve window to get below about 45 or so, no matter how softly I play. So, I have wondered about MIDI calibration, but, don't fully understand it. I use a straight line Velocity curve with its terminal ends at 8,0 and 118,127. I've clipped the ends off the curve since I cannot play that low or high velocities.

PMFJI --

The default value for "Dynamics", in the Petrof Player preset, is 40 dB.

That's a fairly common value for other models, and other presets. When I've experimented with Dynamics values of 60 dB and over, in other models, I've found the sound to be uncontrollable. Maybe that's my unreliable fingers, or maybe it's why Pianoteq uses 40 - 50 dB as its "normal dynamic range".

So -- FWIW -- I have a suggestion:

. . . Reduce the Petrof's dynamic range to 40 dB.

. . . Adjust the volume in your headphones or speakers (using the computer's volume control, _not_ Pianoteq's) so that when you play FF on the keyboard, the sound is loud enough to satisfy you.

. . . See if you can reliably play "p" and "pp" notes.

(It's possible that your keyboard has a problem with low key velocities, and that's something you might be able to fix by modifying the Pianoteq velocity map. Leave that for another thread.)

After you do that:

. . . Is the "piano sounds distant" problem fixed?

Thanks --


. Charles
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Originally Posted by Ralphiano
. . . On a possibly related note, I have difficulty playing softly enough to get the vertical note lines in the velocity curve window to get below about 45 or so, no matter how softly I play.

You should use the Pianoteq "Calibration" button (just below the "Velocity" window) to run their calibration routine on your keyboard. It should give you a reasonable MIDI mapping for _your_ keyboard.

If that gives strange results, try this rule of thumb:

If the minimum MIDI velocity the keyboard will generate, reliably, is around 45, and the maximum is 110:

. . . Your "Velocity" window curve should be along the bottom edge until it reaches 45 (the "x" value),

. . . and then rise diagonally, as a straight line, until it reaches the top edge at an "x" value of 110.

Getting that curve a little bit wrong, won't matter much. Getting it _seriously_ wrong (or having a keyboard that has funny ideas) can do strange things to your playing, and the sound of the Pianoteq instruments.

Last edited by Charles Cohen; 07/11/21 12:43 AM.

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Originally Posted by Ralphiano
I just played the opening several measures of Clementi Sonatina Op.36, no.1, mvmt 1. MIDI values ranged from 48 to 76.

I have the Volume slider at 0db, and the Dynamics slider at 75db.

On a possibly related note, I have difficulty playing softly enough to get the vertical note lines in the velocity curve window to get below about 45 or so, no matter how softly I play. So, I have wondered about MIDI calibration, but, don't fully understand it. I use a straight line Velocity curve with its terminal ends at 8,0 and 118,127. I've clipped the ends off the curve since I cannot play that low or high velocities.


Say velocity is averaging around 50s if you have played the Sonatina entirely in normal mf force,
[Linked Image]

With the velocity curve you have set above, you are getting mostly a p sound and not mf. Coupled with the dynamic range at 75dB, the piano would sound like on the far side of the moon.

As Charles mentioned in his informative post, bring the dynamic range down to 30-40s dB. Bump the curve up so that you can bring out the brighter tones.
[Linked Image]

Only when these are set, before i would tinkle other settings like microphone placements and string hardness.

On another note, were you playing the Clementi Sonatina in mf or pp force? Because if you are playing using normal velocity at 48, and you cannot get the curve to light up below 45 then there could be some issues with your DP, eg. touch settings or hardware problem.

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Originally Posted by Ralphiano
To me, the Bechstein DG is the clearest and most present piano in the Pianoteq stable.

To me also. By a country mile. It's the only PT sound I can stand for more than a few minutes. 'Player Position' Bechstein is the most present and immediate sound in PianoTeq.

I only ever use headphones.

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Switching from 'Sound Recording' to 'Stereophonic' should make it as direct as possible.

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Agree on the Bechstein - it's the only one that sounds like I'm in the room with it. D282 is really rather nice. I really don't know what it is with the others. Maybe some kind of inability to model the very high frequency there?

It just feels like I could make the Steinway D out of the D282 by adding a high pass filter. I might try that next weekend and see if that's right. And maybe ghost the mids. Like... maybe add a ~1ms? delayed overlay to a feq cut, maybe from 150hz to 800 or so. But even if that's right, it doesn't fix the instruments...

In some ways I'd love to get rid of it, but the thing is, I keep coming back to pianoteq - the d282 in particular, because of how playable it is. And the sympathetic resonance.

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That kills fidelity for me at the expense of richer volume.

To the OP: I'd say lower the dynamic range as suggested, and possibly increase the gain to over 5 db, see how it sounds. Also lower the reverb amount.

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Dunno what it is wi you guys! Like anything new, you have to play around with it. Myself and others have come to realise how complex that can be; what you hear seems to vary from day to day, quite dramtically.
And we have to change stuff again.
So how can one evaluate anything effectively? We simply have too much choice!
We are nothing more than spoilt brats, and a good slap would be highly beneficial.
Too many pianos!
Too many settings!
Too many stamped feet!
Come on in, Big Olga! Deal with us! Make us 'ave it . . .


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