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Originally Posted by Sonepica
There are some very highly paid jobs in my profession

Oh no, not one of those mathematicians turned quants for hedge funds.

I know several of them who retired very early (30s). Totally off topic, I know, and yes, there are nice personal monetary gains, but I think society as a whole loses out. Most of them just retire and stop doing interesting math, science, etc. Just one I know went back to "work" and still contribute their talents to society.

Last edited by redfish1901; 06/26/21 03:33 PM.
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by redfish1901
Back in the other old thread, I said

Originally Posted by redfish1901
I'd suggest sticking with concert grands. There is no substitute.

I wonder if the OP agrees now. There was so much back and forth about how it would be too loud, etc.
Some disagree but very few pianists, even professionals, find the sound of a good 7' or greater piano inadequate for home use. And many would find a concert grand too loud for home use.
I totally agree!


My piano's voice is my voice to the great unknown, out there..in other words a hymn.That is all but that is enough.

Just sold my old C2 and am thinking of replacing it with a CBechstein124, Schimmel K132 or a YUS5.
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Originally Posted by tre corda
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by redfish1901
Back in the other old thread, I said

Originally Posted by redfish1901
I'd suggest sticking with concert grands. There is no substitute.

I wonder if the OP agrees now. There was so much back and forth about how it would be too loud, etc.
Some disagree but very few pianists, even professionals, find the sound of a good 7' or greater piano inadequate for home use. And many would find a concert grand too loud for home use.
I totally agree!

Of course it depends on the size of the room. If the nearest wall in the direction of the open lid is 10m away instead of 2m, it might be ok. I know some people on this forum have said that "just being a concert grand is capable of being played loud, doesn't mean you have to play it loud". But that's not really true, because you need the tonal differentiation you get between soft and forceful playing.

Last edited by Sonepica; 06/26/21 06:34 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sonepica
I know some people on this forum have said that "just being a concert grand is capable of being played loud, doesn't mean you have to play it loud". But that's not really true, because you need the tonal differentiation you get between soft and forceful playing.
Those people would say that one can control the concert grand to play pp and ff at the same levels one would play them on a 7' piano.

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I'd be interested in hearing what people think about the acoustic resonance enhancement used in the Yamaha SX series, and how it compares to pianos that have a) limited wood preparation and b) 5-6 year air drying like Bosendorfer and Shigeru Kawai.

Yamaha advertises it as bringing the qualities of a vintage instrument to a new piano. I think it's undeniably beautiful. It's unique within the piano world currently. Is it what you would want in a piano? It affects the whole keyboard, but it's particularly noticeable in the bass which is extremely rich, dark and warm. Far more so that conventional air dried pianos. I think all premium pianos walk the line that in making the sound special and beautiful, they potentially become more unusual and less versatile. I'm actually pretty happy with the sound of my piano, even though I never would have thought of "vintage" as being the kind of sound I wanted. But I'm interested in what other people think.

Last edited by Sonepica; 06/26/21 09:33 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sonepica
I'd be interested in hearing what people think about the acoustic resonance enhancement used in the Yamaha SX series, and how it compares to pianos that have a) limited wood preparation and b) 5-6 year air drying like Bosendorfer and Shigeru Kawai.
It's not just the treatment of the wood that makes the SX series sound the way it does and different from other Yamaha series. So, the only way to answer your question would be to have two Yamahas(or two Bosendorfers), one with the ARE and another one with one of the two other choices you gave for the rim but the rest of the pianos identical.

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We can safely assume that the rim is overwhelmingly the cause of the warm vintage sound from the bass. You don't get that profound sound change from softer hammers. Anyway, the cause of the sound is not really the point of my question.

Last edited by Sonepica; 06/26/21 10:10 PM.
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The rich, warm sound kind of grows on you...

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Originally Posted by Sonepica
We can safely assume that the rim is overwhelmingly the cause of the warm vintage sound from the bass. You don't get that profound sound change from softer hammers. Anyway, the cause of the sound is not really the point of my question.

No, I don't think we can make that assumption at all. Much as the advertising departments would like us to do so.

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Originally Posted by Sonepica
We can safely assume that the rim is overwhelmingly the cause of the warm vintage sound from the bass. You don't get that profound sound change from softer hammers.
If that was true then all pianos of the same size without ARE would sound very similar in the bass which, of course, is not true. Almost all pianos(of the same size) don't have ARE yet the sound of the bass varies a lot depending on every aspect of the scale design including things like the hammers, the voicing, the strings, and every other part of the scale design. You played another piano the same model as yours at the dealer and it had a very different sounding low bass yet they both have ARE. There are plenty of non ARE pianos with a warm sound.

At first you complained about the sound of the lower bass on your piano and now you call it "the warm, vintage sound"?

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Originally Posted by Sonepica
The bass on my S7X isn't bad, it's probably at least as good as the average C7X or S7X. I'm still hoping the bass will improve with time, and otherwise I'm quite happy with the piano.

Earlier on in this thread Sonepica was not happy with the sound of the lower bass. As I recall he asked whether the strength of their higher harmonics (partials) matched those of Bosendorfers and Faziolis. He hopes these will develop over the next year or two. In any case experienced pianists voicing (needling, juicing) will do the trick. I would not argue with that.

However, there is a possibility the lower bass was below standard when it left the factory. I think that would be so if it was "as good as the average C7X" but not if it was "as good as the average S7X". In the SX series videos on YouTube the development team say they specified hammers and strings to bring out the resonances of the rim. The bass strings are specially wound. One would expect all the bass notes to have a similar sound (allowing for differences in frequency and timbre of single wound and double would strings). Otherwise how would Yamaha technicians be able to tell whether a piano is up to standard?

Sonepica's reports suggest the set of single wound strings in his piano may not match the double wounds. That seems more likely than the hammers and other explanations but of course one cannot tell without an expert examination of the piano.

When I was trying to reproduce the effects of seismic isolators on my piano, which has had 115 years of "natural resonance enhancement". I paid some attention to the bass. There was little difference in the partials from the single wounds and the double wounds (e.g. A0 and A1), aurally or as analysed by Spectroid on my Android phone.

[Linked Image]

This comparison of two bass note comes from Nicholas Giordano's 2015 Railsback curve paper. It shows there are plenty of upper partials in the lower notes, and I expect a similar comparison between A0 and A1. Anyway, if this piano did not have all those higher black partials, you might expect to hear one of Sonepica's "boinks".

One way to get to the bottom of this would be to ask the dealer to go back to Yamaha in Japan for their advice on resolving the issue.

Last edited by Withindale; 06/27/21 08:26 AM.

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Withindale, how about Sonepica providing you with recording samples of one single wound, and one of the double strings (muting the other one).

It wound be interesting to see your analysis as in your above posts on actual samples from Sonepica's S7X.

What are the requirements for recording the samples so that you can analyze them?

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Buying a new rather expensive piano can be a very overwhelming experience for anyone.While Sonnepica's may have written about his THEN perception EARLIER of 1or 2 single bass notes as "boinks" he now writes about "the warm vintage sound" of his bass notes".(I hope he will soon will allow himself to share pictures of his new piano)
So as the piano has been in his space for a few days now he is
hearing the piano "differently". What we experience aurally is very much tied to consciousness, to the brain.Our "ideal
expetations", tied to what every one experiences when they have spent a great deal of money is changeable.At first perhaps we are not perfectly happy, we then begin to fully appreciate the marvelous musical instrument standing in our living room.
I really do not know what you are trying to say to say - except "look my 115year old piano has a perfectly balanced bass?"
Well thanks Withindale but I think many would prefer Sonnepica's new S7X. No I do not think Sonnepica needs to rush off to the dealer and contact Yamaha.In fact he seems to be adjusting well to his piano.I think we should respect that.


.

Last edited by tre corda; 06/27/21 09:23 AM.

My piano's voice is my voice to the great unknown, out there..in other words a hymn.That is all but that is enough.

Just sold my old C2 and am thinking of replacing it with a CBechstein124, Schimmel K132 or a YUS5.
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[quote=tre corda]Buying a new rather expensive piano can be a very overwhelming experience for anyone.While Sonnepica's may have written about his THEN perception EARLIER of 1or 2 single bass notes as "boinks" he now writes about "the warm vintage sound" of his bass notes".(I hope he will soon will allow himself to share pictures of his new piano)
So as the piano has been in his space for a few days now he is
hearing the piano "differently". What we experience aurally is very much tied to consciousness, to the brain.Our "ideal
expetations", tied to what every one experiences when they have spent a great deal of money is changeable.At first perhaps we are not perfectly happy, we then begin to fully appreciate the marvelous musical instrument standing in our living room.
I really do not know what you are trying to say to say - except "look my 115year old piano has a perfectly balanced bass?"
Well thanks Withindale but I think many would prefer Sonnepica's new S7X. No I do not think Sonnepica needs to rush off to the dealer and contact Yamaha.In fact he seems to be adjusting well to his piano.I think we should respect that./quote]


Ian Russell
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Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
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Originally Posted by Withindale
[quote=tre corda]Buying a new rather expensive piano can be a very overwhelming experience for anyone.While Sonnepica's may have written about his THEN perception EARLIER of 1or 2 single bass notes as "boinks" he now writes about "the warm vintage sound" of his bass notes".(I hope he will soon will allow himself to share pictures of his new piano)
So as the piano has been in his space for a few days now he is
hearing the piano "differently". What we experience aurally is very much tied to consciousness, to the brain.Our "ideal
expetations", tied to what every one experiences when they have spent a great deal of money is changeable.At first perhaps we are not perfectly happy, we then begin to fully appreciate the marvelous musical instrument standing in our living room.
I really do not know what you are trying to say to say - except "look my 115year old piano has a perfectly balanced bass?"
Well thanks Withindale but I think many would prefer Sonnepica's new S7X. No I do not think Sonnepica needs to rush off to the dealer and contact Yamaha.In fact he seems to be adjusting well to his piano.I think we should respect that./quote]

Tre Corda, please re-read your remarks about me and withdraw them. If there is a manufacturing problem with Sonepica's piano, it is measurable and could well be corrected.

Perhaps the single wounds and double wounds sound markedly different in many modern pianos. I am not aware of that as I have not played them and listened for the difference. Piano technicians seem to prefer pianos where the break between the wound strings and steels is as imperceptibe as possible and presumably the same applies to the break in the bass strings.

Last edited by Withindale; 06/27/21 10:17 AM.

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Originally Posted by Hakki
Withindale, how about Sonepica providing you with recording samples of one single wound, and one of the double strings (muting the other one).

It wound be interesting to see your analysis as in your above posts on actual samples from Sonepica's S7X.

What are the requirements for recording the samples so that you can analyze them?

A simple way is to use a real-time spectrum analyser on a smartphone. I used Spectroid on my Android and there are others for iPhones. Instant results and no need for recordings.


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Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by Hakki
Withindale, how about Sonepica providing you with recording samples of one single wound, and one of the double strings (muting the other one).

It wound be interesting to see your analysis as in your above posts on actual samples from Sonepica's S7X.

What are the requirements for recording the samples so that you can analyze them?

A simple way is to use a real-time spectrum analyser on a smartphone. I used Spectroid on my Android and there are others for iPhones. Instant results and no need for recordings.

Ok.

Sonepica would you post your analysis using a similar app on your phone.

I guess two notes one octave apart, one from single and one from double strings are used to align the partials.

Withindale please correct this if I have misunderstood it.

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Withindale
You seem to be comparing your piano to Sonnepica's piano. They are different creatures. I do not think they are comparable As Sonnepica has said his very new piano will settle down.The new owner of the performance grade Yamaha piano is obviously much happier with his piano.We should leave it there...

Last edited by tre corda; 06/27/21 11:24 AM.

My piano's voice is my voice to the great unknown, out there..in other words a hymn.That is all but that is enough.

Just sold my old C2 and am thinking of replacing it with a CBechstein124, Schimmel K132 or a YUS5.
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Originally Posted by tre corda
Withindale
You seem to be comparing your piano to Sonnepica's piano. They are different creatures. I do not think they are comparable As Sonnepica has said his very new piano will settle down.The new owner of the performance grade Yamaha piano is obviously much happier with his piano.We should leave it there...

Tre Corda

I was using my piano as a point of reference, as it is the one I have to hand, and certainly not comparing it to Sonepica's piano in the way you say.

What I did not mention was its bass strings and hammers were replaced relatively recently and since had little use. My guess is they sounded then as they do now.

The advice in this forum is always to buy a piano only if you like the sound of it in the showroom. Has anyone ever added, except for the bank of single wound bass strings - you can expect then to start resonating after a year or two?

Sonepica's first impression was a problem in the bass. The experts who will know how to identify whether there is a real problem are at Yamaha in Japan. If doubts persist better to ask them than us. For all we know the single wound strings should be replaced.

Other than that I agree we should leave it there.


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Well I am sorry if I seemed to imply anything other. If you read through these pages in many of these posts there are so many suggestions, some really nasty, many weird,some drastic, some I believe do want to help!

I have listened to Sonnepica's recording and do not hear any lack of resonance.

What the perceived original problem was I do not know and neither do you.We are just not there in Australia in the room by the piano. All very new pianos need to settle down.This settling down process is not always easy for the new owner, in fact it can be harrowing
However because he certainly is showing signs of being much happier (by his present descriptions) with the bass of his piano I think everything is turning out fine.I did not know you had all that work done on your piano.It sounds like a beautiful instrument. Is it an Ibach or a Scheimayer?

Last edited by tre corda; 06/27/21 12:47 PM.

My piano's voice is my voice to the great unknown, out there..in other words a hymn.That is all but that is enough.

Just sold my old C2 and am thinking of replacing it with a CBechstein124, Schimmel K132 or a YUS5.
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