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Hello Everyone,

I've loved this forum for years but this is the first time I've ever posted a thread. After years of begging, my wife is finally allowing me to trade our Chickering upright piano in for a Grand Piano!! While the process of looking and doing research has been fun, I am extremely conflicted and was hoping I could hear input from the expertise on this forum.

I have narrowed my search down to 2 (almost 3) pianos. One is new and appears to be a good deal with great timing because of Covid and the dealers brand change. The other is used and well restored, but a significantly older (1925) piano. I'd really appreciate any thoughts about pros/cons for each!! Thank you all in advance.

The first is a brand new Boston GP193. The local piano dealer in town acquired this piano just before they were forced to close from Covid. During Covid, they also stopped carrying Steinway and their affiliates, so this is a 'leftover' piano from their former relationship. The MSRP on the Boston is $41,700. The piano dealer has offered this piano at $25,000 which includes a 10-year warranty. It played nicely but I found it's sound to not be at the same level as the other pianos I'm asking about. Not to say I hated it, but there was clearly a quality difference.

The second option is from a separate piano shop, which specializes in restoring Steinways. They have both a restored 1924 Steinway M and a restored 1925 Steinway L model being offered for $31,000 and with a 10-year warranty. Both pianos have been wonderfully restored and played fantastically. I was slightly more partial to the L model as it is a bit longer and had a 'deeper' sounding range. Ultimately, I'd be curious to hear what everyone's thoughts are on the difference between the L and the M.

Additionally, I am a little worried about owning a piano that is nearly 100 years old. I have heard some of the pros: Fully rebuilt in an original frame, so like a new piano. The frame has been through 100 seasons and is fully conditioned to humidity. The early 20th century Steinways have 'better' materials than the later models. I'm really curious what the negatives are to owing an older restored Steinway from the 1920's??

Finally, this is a wild card. The same local piano shop that has the Boston, also has a 'leftover' brand new Bechstein A-175. They are no longer carrying the Bechstein line and have offered the piano at what they called 'wholesale' price. The piano played wonderfully and I really loved it. But it's significantly above the price range I had planned on. If it is an overwhelmingly good deal that I can't pass up, I'd take a hard look at it. But I just honestly don't know. The MSRP for the Bechstein is $69,900 and they offered it at $49,000.

Caveat, all of these offers from the piano shops are initial offers. I have not negotiated anything yet and the used Steinway's salesman already indicated there is a few thousand dollars of play to work with. I really appreciate all of the help!

Thank you,
Paul

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Hmm... first, don't buy a piano if you don't like its sound. So IMO, cross that Boston off your list. Having said that, don't rule out all Bostons. I've played a new Boston in that size and I loved it (it was just too big for my house -- and my pocketbook!)

Second, maybe you should settle on what the upper level of your budget is?

Third, if you really like that Bechstein, ask the dealer what the lowest price they could give you is, and see how much above your upper limit is. Decide whether you have any wiggle room?

Fourth, nevertheless, if you're looking at pianos in the $25,000-31,000 dollar range, I feel like you should have more than 2.5 options....

Fifth, you didn't say what you thought about the rebuilt Steinway. Did you absolutely love it? I am definitely partial to new(er) instruments myself, so I'll let someone else try to convince you to buy the Steinway. But what matters most is how much you liked it, which your post didn't make clear.

Are you in Buffalo? (Just guessing from your screenname). Maybe EbonyK will post here, I can't remember what the options are in Buffalo these days...

P.S. Welcome to PW!!! smile

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Thank you very much for the thoughts!! I am in Buffalo and would love to hear if I'm missing any other options in the area.

I agree with you on the upper budget thoughts. I really do NOT want to spend north of $31k, but that Bechstein was fantastic and tempting.

As for the rebuilt Steinway, I apologize for not mentioning that! I loved the sound of the L model while the M sounded great, but just a little different.

I think honestly the sound between the feel and enjoyment I got out of the new Bechstein and the rebuilt Steinway L were extremely similar. I'm just so wary to invest $30k in an instrument that's nearly 100 years old. I can't tell if I'm crazy or not for thinking that.

I appreciate the feedback on the Bostons. FWIW, I tried a used Essex GP173 this afternoon that I was really impressed by. But still find myself drawn towards the Steinway/Bechstein.

The Steinways obviously have the 'brand' and history. I played my childhood recitals on one and always dreamed of owning one. I'd just hate to make a mistake of buying one the wrong way.

Nobody told me how complicated this whole process would be - I just want the right grand lol!!

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I agree with ShiroKuro, only buy a piano you love. If you’re not loving the Boston’s sound, I’d pass. The Bechstein is their Academy series, you can read about them here: https://www.pianobuyer.com/brand/bechstein-c/

The rebuilt Steinways are a possibility. It depends on who did the rebuilding. If you’re in Buffalo, I’m pretty sure I know who is selling them. I’m comfortable giving them a 👍.


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Originally Posted by 716GoBills
Thank you very much for the thoughts!! I am in Buffalo and would love to hear if I'm missing any other options in the area.

I agree with you on the upper budget thoughts. I really do NOT want to spend north of $31k, but that Bechstein was fantastic and tempting.

As for the rebuilt Steinway, I apologize for not mentioning that! I loved the sound of the L model while the M sounded great, but just a little different.

I think honestly the sound between the feel and enjoyment I got out of the new Bechstein and the rebuilt Steinway L were extremely similar. I'm just so wary to invest $30k in an instrument that's nearly 100 years old. I can't tell if I'm crazy or not for thinking that.

I appreciate the feedback on the Bostons. FWIW, I tried a used Essex GP173 this afternoon that I was really impressed by. But still find myself drawn towards the Steinway/Bechstein.

The Steinways obviously have the 'brand' and history. I played my childhood recitals on one and always dreamed of owning one. I'd just hate to make a mistake of buying one the wrong way.

Nobody told me how complicated this whole process would be - I just want the right grand lol!!

Well, in that case…😂😂😂

Want to meet for coffee? 😊

I sent you a PM.


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Quote
Nobody told me how complicated this whole process would be - I just want the right grand lol!!

I feel your pain!!! I spent months piano shopping and it's funny how stressful it felt at times! Hang in there though, the pay off is soooo worth it!!!

I don't know very much about Essex, I've only played one and didn't like it at all.

Quote
I'm just so wary to invest $30k in an instrument that's nearly 100 years old. I can't tell if I'm crazy or not for thinking that.

I would be as well, although having said that, years ago I took lessons on a pre-1900 Steinway that had been completely restored. If I had the option to buy a piano like that, I would not give its age a second though. Of course, I played that piano weekly for 2 years, so I knew what a great instrument it was...

But back to your options... it really depends on the piano and what work was done, and how good the work was. Still, it's encouraging that it's from a dealer, and they give a 10 year warranty.

Re what restoration was done, you said it's basically a new piano inside? So, new action, hammers, strings?

Have you consulted with a local piano tech not affiliated with the dealer? Perhaps they could evaluate the two Steinways for you?

Re Buffalo, I think EbonyK may have info about the dealers there, I'll PM her.


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Originally Posted by ebonyk
Well, in that case…😂😂😂

Want to meet for coffee? 😊

Guess I don't need to send you a PM!!! ahahahaha! grin


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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Originally Posted by ebonyk
Well, in that case…😂😂😂

Want to meet for coffee? 😊

Guess I don't need to send you a PM!!! ahahahaha! grin
I’m here, as always……😂😂😂


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1. It's possible that the Boston can be voiced more to your liking if you discuss with the dealer how you would like the tone to improve/change.

2. It's absolutely imperative to get the Steinway evaluated by a knowledgeable tech not beholden to the dealer. Although prices on rebuilt Steinways vary a lot for many reasons including location, the price quoted is extremely low for a Steinway rebuild. You need to find out exactly which parts were replaced, what they were replaced with, and the quality of rebuild(not the same as quality of the parts used). Unless you have extensive experience playing high quality grands, you are mostly comparing these pianos to your own old upright.

3. I've never heard anyone say that an extremely well rebuilt piano with all new insides would have a problem because the case and plate are 100 years old. But if not all the insides were replaced, then your concern about the piano being old might be very significant.

4. Only you can decide if the Bechstein Academy is worth the extra money. That might depend a lot on a tech's evaluation of the Steinway(s).

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Wow, the dealer no longer carries Steinway (or Boston and Essex), and also no longer carries Bechstein.

What do they carry now?


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Originally Posted by ebonyk
Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Guess I don't need to send you a PM!!! ahahahaha! grin
I’m here, as always……😂😂😂

thumb thumb thumb

Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Wow, the dealer no longer carries Steinway (or Boston and Essex), and also no longer carries Bechstein.

What do they carry now?

Indeed!!

Separate from that, did Steinway change how it does it's "authorized dealers" a few years back or something? One of the dealers I visited while piano shopping had been *the* Steinway dealer for years, but there was some disagreement on policies and then suddenly, they no longer were. Now they are a Kawai dealer but their dealership was still full of Bostons, S&Ss and a few Essex pianos as well...
/threaddrift.


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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Wow, the dealer no longer carries Steinway (or Boston and Essex), and also no longer carries Bechstein.

What do they carry now?
I'm assuming they still carry Kawai. They are also a Story & Clark dealer and, I think, Young Chang. I'm shocked that they no longer carry Bechstein, that's a real shame.

Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Indeed!!

Separate from that, did Steinway change how it does it's "authorized dealers" a few years back or something? One of the dealers I visited while piano shopping had been *the* Steinway dealer for years, but there was some disagreement on policies and then suddenly, they no longer were. Now they are a Kawai dealer but their dealership was still full of Bostons, S&Ss and a few Essex pianos as well...
/threaddrift.

It seems to have happened with a LOT of Steinway dealers or, ex-Steinway dealers, as the case may be. From my understanding, Steinway made some changes that dealers really didn't like about the way business was done, so they ended up parting ways.


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Originally Posted by ebonyk
Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Separate from that, did Steinway change how it does it's "authorized dealers" a few years back or something? One of the dealers I visited while piano shopping had been *the* Steinway dealer for years, but there was some disagreement on policies and then suddenly, they no longer were. Now they are a Kawai dealer but their dealership was still full of Bostons, S&Ss and a few Essex pianos as well...
/threaddrift.

It seems to have happened with a LOT of Steinway dealers or, ex-Steinway dealers, as the case may be. From my understanding, Steinway made some changes that dealers really didn't like about the way business was done, so they ended up parting ways.

There's been some rancorous discussion about this. Some have said that Steinway is essentially forcing dealers to carry only Steinway products. Whether that's explicit, or implicit through onerous requirements, is unknown (or if it's even true). One thing that's undeniable is that in a number of markets the Steinway line has shifted from "mixed" dealerships to Steinway-only dealerships. (here's a related thread: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2725384/1.html)

Also, there are 14 Steinway-owned retail dealerships in the U.S. (https://www.steinway.com/about/showrooms). These, I assume, are all Steinway-only.


FWIW, let me says that this is smart business on Steinway's part. Steinway-only dealerships better represent Steinway's interests. And, naturally, Steinway-owned dealerships do so to an even greater extent (and are a natural part of their apparent plan to vertically integrate the company).


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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Also, there are 14 Steinway-owned retail dealerships in the U.S. (https://www.steinway.com/about/showrooms). These, I assume, are all Steinway-only.
Wow, and 6 of these are in California. I wonder if Mason & Hamlin are doing something similar? It's been pretty difficult to locate actual M&H dealers here for the past few years. It's weird....


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I called the factory in Haverhill, and the only option in Massachusetts seems to be do go there to try examples.

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Thank you all for the input! Yes the dealer here said there was a dispute with Steinway in regards to the number of new Steinways they were expected to sell. They ultimately decided to go in another direction and now love the Kawai line.

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Retsacnal thanks for the reminder, I forgot about that thread.

716GoBills, sorry for the thread drift!!


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I’d give a call over to Piano & Organ Center in Rochester, they have a LOT of new and used grands and I like their store. It’s a good shop, they are very reasonable in haggling. https://pianoandorgancenter.com/rochester-store/

It wouldn’t be a bad idea to ask what’s on the floor right now. There’s also another shop in Rochester, of the same name as the one you visited here, they may have other used grands that might deserve a look.

If you love the Bechstein, and if the shop actually agreed to take your trade in (I was always unsuccessful in having them take a trade-in, so you really should find out first), maybe it’s something to consider. Just be really clear of what your max is. I personally was blown away by Bechstein grands (though I didn’t play the Academy series), but it was WAY out of my price range.

Pianoloverus mentioned having the shop voice the Boston, but I’m not sure they would agree to that, to be honest. They aren’t great at prepping their pianos, unfortunately, though you could ask and see what they say.

The Steinway rebuilder would definitely take your trade in. I bought my first piano from them in the 1990s! ❤️ They do a wonderful job of rebuilding and their prices are quite reasonable, also being open to haggling.

Good luck and keep us posted!


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Originally Posted by ebonyk
If you love the Bechstein, and if the shop actually agreed to take your trade in (I was always unsuccessful in having them take a trade-in, so you really should find out first), maybe it’s something to consider. Just be really clear of what your max is. I personally was blown away by Bechstein grands (though I didn’t play the Academy series), but it was WAY out of my price range.

Pianoloverus mentioned having the shop voice the Boston, but I’m not sure they would agree to that, to be honest. They aren’t great at prepping their pianos, unfortunately, though you could ask and see what they say.

The Steinway rebuilder would definitely take your trade in. I bought my first piano from them in the 1990s! ❤️ They do a wonderful job of rebuilding and their prices are quite reasonable, also being open to haggling.

Good luck and keep us posted!
Whether or not a store accepts the OP's trade in will not make much difference since his vertical is probably not worth much. So it won't affect the selling price of the new piano much if at all.

There's no harm in asking the dealer to try and voice the Boston more to the OP's liking. Of course, they might not agree to do but that doesn't mean one shouldn't ask. He's not committed to buying it if the voicing doesn't produce a piano he likes.

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Thank you everyone for the help and input. This has really calmed my nerves to hear so many opinions and realize it's perfectly okay to be so conflicted about things!

Both piano shops have agreed to take my Chickering upright on trade, although it sounds like I'd be extremely lucky to even get $1,000 for it.

As for thoughts on the whole situation after hearing everyone's thoughts..

The Boston - I just didn't love playing it. I never considered asking them to rework the tune, but I also feel like if I'm going brand new and spending that much money, I need to stick more with the gut feeling of how a piano felt when I played it the way it's meant to be set up. For the sake of trying to make a decision, I'm ruling the Boston out.

The Bechstein - If I somehow win the lottery soon or some windfall happens, I need to buy that thing. But to jump up nearly $20k from my budget just doesn't seem smart. Especially because when I look up used models of that piano, there are some online (nationally and internationally) that are less than 10 years old, and nearly $20k cheaper. So the depreciation on a brand new piano like that is a bit terrifying. I know we'll never get back out what we pay for these beautiful instruments, but to spend that much money and absorb a huge depreciation just doesn't make sense.

The used Essex/rebuilt Baldwin - I didn't mention these because I didn't want to muddy the waters. The piano shop with the Steinways had a used Essex and used Baldwin I played that I thought both sounded very nice. The 1960's Baldwin was definitely a nice piano, but the price point was within 25% of the Steinway. I just felt like if I'm already getting into that price range, I should go with the brand and sound I've been glued to.
The Essex was really surprising. It's used Essex EGP 173 for $16,500 and less than 10 years old. I actually found it played really nicely and had a great sound. It's also just about half of the price of the Steinway. It's a little shorter and obviously used rather than rebuilt. But it was enough to at least make me put some more thought into it.

Ultimately, I loved the way the Steinway felt, sounded, and looked. Again, I grew up playing recitals on them and never dreamed I could have one in my home. So I'm sure part of this is I'm paying purely for that brand/legacy. My two biggest fears with the 1925 Steinway were the age of the piano and the quality of the rebuild. Thanks to all of you and Lisa, I feel much more confident in that piano now.
With the age, as I now understand it, the only parts of that piano that are truly 100 years old are the shell, soundboard, and a few other 'permanent' pieces. Since it was rebuilt, the way I am trying to look at it now is that it's essentially a brand new piano in a beautiful and historical case - which as a history buff is really cool too.
As for the rebuild quality, I really have to thank Lisa for her help here. She has experience with this shop and has owned one of their rebuilds. All of the reviews I've read online bode really well for their rebuild quality as well. They really do specialize in rebuilding Steinways and have been doing so for 60 years. Their warranty adds a lot of confidence to that.

So... all things now being considered, I'm going to sleep on it until next week. But I feel like the right decision is the 1925 Steinway L. The only wild card I think that could derail that plan is if I play that Essex again and am still impressed by the sound. But like I mentioned, I can't help but feel like if I'm making this big of an investment, I shouldn't force myself down a notch just because something is cheaper. Never want to have buyers remorse in this industry because I'll be playing it for a very long time and don't want to always ask myself 'what-if.'

Again I really appreciate everyone's help. I just wanted to let you all know how your input has helped steer my thoughts around the piano decision. If there's anything else I should consider, please let me know!! You guys are all the best. I'm so happy I found this group.

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