2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
45 members (AprilE, anotherpianoplayer, Bett, Azunyan, Ed McMorrow, RPT, 13 invisible), 1,372 guests, and 553 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
#3130173 06/21/21 10:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
D
Dore Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
I've been working on sampling my piano for awhile now, and I'm aware of the Pianobook kontakt templates. I also have the ability to make my own SFZ templates.

Let's say that I created and distributed a MIDI file that would automatically "play" a large set of individual notes of a piano VST at different velocities (pedal up and down) that matched one of the template mappings. If I gave that MIDI file to someone, for example someone who has Garritan CFX, I could ask them to record the audio output from the MIDI file and send it to me.

I could then easily slice it up into individual wave files that match the template mapping. This would be a "summary" version of the commercial VST and I could potentially distribute it for free (?). I've been doing this already with my own recordings, and I have a pretty fast setup to slice, dice, rename using Reaper.

Would that be legal?

(I realize that this "summary" version would be inferior to the original commercial VST) I


1928 Mason & Hamlin Model A
Play it as a VI HERE and binaurally HERE
Yamaha PF85, Formerly Kawai KG-1D
Dore #3130176 06/21/21 11:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,987
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,987
Well, that will vary by terms of each VI but I would not be too bullish. For example, on Part 3.3 USE AND RESTRICTIONS, Garritan would not permit this; a separate agreement might be possible.

https://wpmedia.makemusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/EULA-CFX.pdf

Dore #3130179 06/21/21 11:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
D
Dore Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
Ahh... Makes sense.

But would you be violating their terms by just publishing your "music", which is a midi recording of individual notes?

And then someone like me makes another VST out of it? It would be ME that would be doing the underhanded work, theoretically. So the original owner actually didn't violate any license terms (?)


1928 Mason & Hamlin Model A
Play it as a VI HERE and binaurally HERE
Yamaha PF85, Formerly Kawai KG-1D
Dore #3130180 06/21/21 11:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,987
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,987
The second paragraph is pretty clear in intent.

"3.USE AND RESTRICTIONS.

You can use the LIBRARY in music productions, public performances, and other reasonable musical purposes within musical compositions. You can use the LIBRARY in your own musical compositions as much as you like without any need to pay MAKEMUSIC or obtain further permission.

No part or component of the LIBRARY can be re-used in any other commercial sample library or any competitive product. You are absolutely forbidden to duplicate, copy, distribute, transfer, upload or download, trade, loan, reissue or resell this LIBRARY or any of the contents in anyway to anyone.You can not redistribute them through an archive, nor a collection, nor the Internet,nor a binaries group,nor a newsgroup, nor any type of removable media,nor through a network.The sounds and samples contained herein can not be edited, modified, digitally altered, re-synthesized or manipulated without direct written consent of MAKEMUSIC.

A right to use the LIBRARY is granted to the original end-user only,and this license is not transferable unless there is written consent of MAKEMUSIC and possible payment of an additional fee, or as permitted by law."

This is the section from the above link for discussion purposes only. Contact MAKEMUSIC directly for the latest terms.

Dore #3130183 06/21/21 11:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
D
Dore Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
I suppose that any other instrument made from Garritan CFX would be considered a "competitive product" regardless of if it was for profit or not.

"No part or component of the LIBRARY can be re-used in any other commercial sample library or any competitive product."

But does that also mean that if I owned Garritan CFX and made sample loops of my own music I could not sell that as a sample library?


1928 Mason & Hamlin Model A
Play it as a VI HERE and binaurally HERE
Yamaha PF85, Formerly Kawai KG-1D
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 64
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 64
This is not legal advice... Thats not going to be legal. What you describe would be copyright violation, independent of the user license. And you would be liable. Its like... you can't get 10 different people to photograph the different pages of a 10 page book, and then you publish the photographs. (I'm not an attorney, but my business has copyrighted artwork we distribute that can be freely used in some circumstances, but we retain and control copyright.)


Roland FP30, VILabs etc, adult beginner. Get your personal pianist emojis: Emoji Me App
Dore #3130189 06/21/21 11:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
D
Dore Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
Great analogy.


1928 Mason & Hamlin Model A
Play it as a VI HERE and binaurally HERE
Yamaha PF85, Formerly Kawai KG-1D
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 64
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 64
Maybe find this in your local library: Getting Permission: How to License & Clear Copyrighted Materials Online & Off; Richard Stim; Nolo Press;

https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Perm...permission&qid=1624333136&sr=8-2


Roland FP30, VILabs etc, adult beginner. Get your personal pianist emojis: Emoji Me App
Dore #3130195 06/22/21 12:08 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,156
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,156
Whilst you can't copy the sounds exactly: there is nothing stopping you from altering the sounds slightly add then doing whenever you want with them smile

E.g. just filter out some of the sympathetic resonance and dampen/attenuate some octave or fifth overtones. Hint: the synthesizer itself usually offers the settings to do this for you smile

Last edited by Burkey; 06/22/21 12:09 AM.

Pianos are one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Dore #3130209 06/22/21 01:51 AM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 213
C
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
C
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 213
Without naming them, there are a few VI companies who I (along with others who have posted about similar suspicions on Forums) suspect have done just this, and sell them under there own name/brand.


Pianist, Composer & Arranger
Burkey #3130216 06/22/21 02:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,441
C
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,441
Originally Posted by Burkey
Whilst you can't copy the sounds exactly: there is nothing stopping you from altering the sounds slightly add then doing whenever you want with them smile

I need to look up some names to give this credibility --

There was an opening theme for "Miami Vice", that had a very neat conga riff.

The riff's composer had visited a conguero, and asked to have a short recording of his playing --

. . . and used that recording to extract his samples.

The riff was built using those samples.

The conguero sued, and (I think) won a substantial settlement.

But I'm not a lawyer, and copyright law, in the digital domain, is still a work in progress.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq
Dore #3130217 06/22/21 02:48 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,077
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,077
If I read this right ... you can use the virtual instrument in any way you wish ... except you cannot create a new instrument from it. That's meant to stop pirating. And it seems reasonable to me.

@Dore: You said this:
Quote
Let's say that I created and distributed a MIDI file that would automatically "play" a large set of individual notes of a piano VST at different velocities ...
If I gave that MIDI file to someone, for example someone who has Garritan CFX, I could ask them to record the audio output from the MIDI file and send it to me.
I could then easily slice it up into individual wave files that match the template mapping.
This would be a "summary" version of the commercial VST and I could potentially distribute it for free (?).
If that is your intention, are you proposing to create new instruments based on existing ones? Because that seems to be a license violation.

And then this ...
Quote
I've been doing this already with my own recordings, and I have a pretty fast setup to slice, dice, rename using Reaper.
So you don't just propose doing it. You are doing it. frown

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,156
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,156
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Originally Posted by Burkey
Whilst you can't copy the sounds exactly: there is nothing stopping you from altering the sounds slightly add then doing whenever you want with them smile

I need to look up some names to give this credibility --

There was an opening theme for "Miami Vice", that had a very neat conga riff.

The riff's composer had visited a conguero, and asked to have a short recording of his playing --

. . . and used that recording to extract his samples.

The riff was built using those samples.

The conguero sued, and (I think) won a substantial settlement.

But I'm not a lawyer, and copyright law, in the digital domain, is still a work in progress.
We are not referring to copying melodies/riffs - we are specifically discussing individual notes.

I.e.
1. Send MIDI velocity 127 for all 88 notes - and record the outputs as new samples.
2. Send MIDI velocity 126 for all 88 notes - and record the output as new samples.
... repeat for all 127 layers.
Sending MIDI messages is as easy as opening YouTube - there are tutorials for Java, JavaScript, C#, you name it.

For bonus marks, train a machine learning algorithm to generate those recorded samples... Profit smile

P.S. @Dore: if you want to proceed with this idea I can save you about a month's effort ;-) (creating and playing a MIDI file is a very slow and inefficient way to do this)

Last edited by Burkey; 06/22/21 03:19 AM.

Pianos are one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Dore #3130225 06/22/21 03:14 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,527
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,527
Hello Dore,

This is not directly related to your query, however your post reminded me of a video I stumbled upon the other day:



Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
D
Dore Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
And then this ...
Quote
I've been doing this already with my own recordings, and I have a pretty fast setup to slice, dice, rename using Reaper.
So you don't just propose doing it. You are doing it. frown


My recordings are of my piano with my mics. So I'm not doing it already. I'm pretty sure I own my own content.


1928 Mason & Hamlin Model A
Play it as a VI HERE and binaurally HERE
Yamaha PF85, Formerly Kawai KG-1D
Dore #3130268 06/22/21 05:44 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,077
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,077
If you mean your acoustic piano, sure ...
Originally Posted by Dore
My recordings are of my piano with my mics. So I'm not doing it already. I'm pretty sure I own my own content.

But if you're mic'ing the playback of a VI that's playing through all the notes at different velocities (as you suggested in your first post), that sure seems suspicious.

Which is it?

Dore #3130313 06/22/21 08:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
D
Dore Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 143
I do mean my acoustic.


1928 Mason & Hamlin Model A
Play it as a VI HERE and binaurally HERE
Yamaha PF85, Formerly Kawai KG-1D

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Everett upright Regulation
by wenhen90 - 07/31/21 06:57 PM
Marx
by dolce sfogato - 07/31/21 04:05 PM
Self-teaching and looking for good exercises
by TORaptors2019 - 07/31/21 03:46 PM
ES110 Static/Buzzing on Certain Keys?
by mikechang503 - 07/31/21 02:40 PM
Music's greatest teacher
by pianoloverus - 07/31/21 02:22 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics208,310
Posts3,117,987
Members102,295
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5