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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
So, according to the article, if we need to learn to play some difficult place, the most efficient way to do it is to play it several times non-stop, than to rest for 10 seconds, than to play it several times again, than to rest for 10 seconds again, and to repeat this cycle many times.
(Animisha's Bold, not Iaroslav's)

Actually, we don't know that. They just tested what happened during these ten seconds rest. But they didn't test different schedules. For instance, exactly how long practice and how long rest is the most efficient for learning? Maybe the best combination for five numbers is not 10 seconds practice - 10 seconds rest, but 6-12 instead, or 12-8. We don't know.
Also, this was a very simple pattern with one hand only. What happens when learning complex patterns with both hands? For instance, one measure in a polyphonic piece? Intuitively, I would say that ten seconds practice feels like way, way too little. But who knows, I may be wrong.
Still, it is interesting, and it clearly points to the importance of taking many short breaks when practising.


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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Research shows that rest and breaks and even short naps probably are as important as practice time when learning new material.
Thanks for posting this, Sweelinck! Research findings of this nature are grist-to-the-mill for committed learners of any extremely complex skill. Understanding how to maximize the effectiveness of one's practising efforts is obviously crucial for ensuring it; ultimately such understanding has to do with brain activity and the neurophysiological processes, principles and conditions (=contingencies) that determine its realized, experienceable consequences.

Your link's target is NIH's news bulletin reporting the referred-to research paper's publication and providing a gist of its contents. Although the research-paper itself, as one would expect, is more technical, it's well-written and offers even the non-technical reader far more factual and explanatory information than the bulletin - so, for whomever is interested, here's the link for it:
https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(21)00539-8https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(21)00539-8
(It's "open-access", so doesn't require sign-up or a paywall to read online or download)

If I may append my personal comment on the paper's findings, reflecting my understanding as a cognitive scientist myself, they add unquestionably important insights for unravelling the learning-process. At the same time, the research focuses on one specific aspect of brain activity that goes towards accounting for why taking breaks assists the learning-process. Quite another aspect that is equally accountable is that of attention - in particular, one's level of purposefully focused attention on details of the task one is practising. Purposefully focused attending is cognitively demanding and expensive for the brain in terms of energy consumption, and consequently prone to fatigue over the course of sustained repeating of one's attempts. In addition to that, another outcome of repeating one's attempts is that the processing of certain details that are crucial for improving their performance becomes increasingly automatic, and consequently one's conscious attending to such details becomes redundant. Their automatized processing is comparatively far less energy-costly, and allows attention to be purposefully focused on previously unattended-to aspects (especially larger-scale ones, such as musical patterns and passages rather than individual playing-acts, or fingering rather than individual keystroke specifications). But this attentional shifting incurs its own cognitive demands, high energy-expenditures and consequent fatigue, which will predictably take a toll on the performance of the automatized aspects. The brain must at every moment budget its energy resources in order to prioritize the operations most needed there and then - and that budgeting necessarily encompasses every living cell throughout the body, too.

Given this, it would seem obvious that taking regular breaks - allowing the brain's recovery from fatigue and the local replenishing and overall re-balancing of its physiological processes - would expedite learning to perform a cognitively exacting task. I'm not highly conversant with the hippocampus' neurophysiology, but it's plausible to propose that taking a break allows it to perform optimally over that period, when the brain can prioritize its very considerable energy needs (it engages numerous other collaborative processes) - and, even, that its activity is actually regulated to a reduced level until one takes a break. It wouldn't be the only brain-network conditional on not attending to tasks - there's the so-called "default-mode network", for example. Something worth me looking into, I think.

BTW, Sweelinck, how did you learn of this study, published only last week? May I hazard a guess you're in the field yourself?

Last edited by Scordatura; 06/15/21 03:49 PM.

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I have never worked in a field related to this work. I just read a well curated news feed with broad topic coverage.


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Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I'm afraid some of us could miss the point of this extremely important article. It's not about taking a break or a nap after learning something. In fact a nap is never mentioned there. Nor the focus. It's about taking very short breaks while learning something (a motor skill), because these short breaks are required by the brain to build more advanced neural pathways. The fascinating discovery of this article is that these pathways are built greatly faster in-between repetitions than during repetitions. Also these pathways are built greatly faster in-between repetitions than after repetitions.

So, according to the article, if we need to learn to play some difficult place, the most efficient way to do it is to play it several times non-stop, than to rest for 10 seconds, than to play it several times again, than to rest for 10 seconds again, and to repeat this cycle many times. The research data shows that 6 first cycles is where progress is most rapid and where about 60% of supposed daily maximum is reached. And 10 cycles is a point at which about 80% of daily maximum is reached. After that the progress slows down significantly. Certainly the chosen motor skill in the article is much simpler than real piano playing, so some numbers may be different for piano playing, but the principle remains the same.

Full text is available at Biorxiv for free.
Repeatedly typing a five-digit code with the left hand is far different from learning a piano piece. Extrapolating the results of typing the code to learning a piano piece might be valid, but a healthy dose of skepticism is in order, as it is any time an extrapolation is made.

I'm a show-me-the-data person. I'd want to see the experiment repeated using the piano. smile
A valid demand! smile But, please, note that not only they have collected the experiments' data but they have also discovered the principle behind their findings, they have discovered what exactly happens in the brain in-between repetitions. I think it is extremely likely that this kind of neurological activity lies behind all motor skills learning from typing to basketball.
Yes, but they really have to extend their experiments to show more general applicability. I was happy to see some real, hard data collected. But I do always look with skepticism on publicity department press releases--which is what the original link led to--where "might" and "could" are used for extrapolation purposes, but where the authors of the paper would be more cautious.
I agree it is not a conclusive result about music practice. But until we have a more conclusive result, people practicing music are conducting a de facto unscientific experiment if some try the technique. Of course you can follow what most will do and be content to be in the control group.


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Recent articles by world chess players, they don’t play beyond 45 mins at a time. I accidentally discovered not playing for a day or two [fell ill] and noticed I was playing a difficult passage better and seemingly got over the hump on a quarantine bar…and I repeated this several times that I am now totally okay to not practice every day. Practicing away from the piano is great for these gap day(s).

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
I have never worked in a field related to this work. I just read a well curated news feed with broad topic coverage.

Ahah! Well, I urge you to keep up with your reading it, and post future finds please! I really appreciate the one in question and I'm obviously not alone here.

Newsfeeds are truly invaluable. Actually reading them is even more so. In my own case, I subscribe to so many journals' newsfeeds I have to confess often forgetting to read some, and only getting to learn of a good percentage of new papers from others who recommend them to me - like yourself. So, thanks again!

Last edited by Scordatura; 06/15/21 05:47 PM.

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Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
So, according to the article, if we need to learn to play some difficult place, most efficient way to do it is to play it several times non-stop, than to rest for 10 seconds, than to play it several times again, than to rest for 10 seconds again, and to repeat this cycle many times.
(Animisha's Bold, not Iaroslav's)

Actually, we don't know that. They just tested what happened during these ten seconds rest. But they didn't test different schedules. For instance, exactly how long practice and how long rest is the most efficient for learning? Maybe the best combination for five numbers is not 10 seconds practice - 10 seconds rest, but 6-12 instead, or 12-8. We don't know.
Also, this was a very simple pattern with one hand only. What happens when learning complex patterns with both hands? For instance, one measure in a polyphonic piece? Intuitively, I would say that ten seconds practice feels like way, way too little. But who knows, I may be wrong.
Still, it is interesting, and it clearly points to the importance of taking many short breaks when practising.
Animisha, you forgot to make one more phrase bold:
Quote
... according to the article ... the most efficient way to ...
The questions that you ask are valid, but they are beyond what we know by now from this article. The only rest duration tested in this experiment was 10 seconds, it was proven that it works, and so it's the most efficient way that we know by now. Probably in the future other articles will provide more information, but we don't know it yet.

One more thing to consider is that these numbers (number of repetitions in a set, number of sets, rest duration in seconds) are highly likely to vary from one person to another and from one music phrase to another. As a result it is likely that we'll never know the scientifically proven, absolutely best individual way to practice anything. We'll always have to deal with approximations. Thus I see no point in waiting for future articles, I'd get the principle and try to adapt it to my practice needs and abilities right now.

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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
For drilling purely finger memory I like to use what I call "change of context". You choose two different passages and drill each one for a few repetitions then switch to the other one. After you switch to a different context you have to work harder to get back the finger memory of the passage. It achieves the same effect as a rest but lets you work on two passages at once.
Yes. What you describe is called 'varied practice'. I use it, too. Great method! It would be tremendously interesting and useful if someone scientifically compared the effect of varied practice to the effect of the method described in the article. I hope this team of scientists will not stop their research in that field, too, and we will see new, more detailed experiments in the future.

But maybe we could combine the effect of this method with varied practice? What if we practiced two passages alternately with 10 seconds pause before each set of repetitions?
Come to think of it, choosing between the two, I'd still bet on the short breaks rather than varied practice. Because the article has shown that breaks are necessary for the brain to optimize motions, and non-stop practice, even when alternating passages, may keep the brain too busy, so the optimization may be less efficient.

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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
For drilling purely finger memory I like to use what I call "change of context". You choose two different passages and drill each one for a few repetitions then switch to the other one. After you switch to a different context you have to work harder to get back the finger memory of the passage. It achieves the same effect as a rest but lets you work on two passages at once.
Yes. What you describe is called 'varied practice'. I use it, too. Great method! It would be tremendously interesting and useful if someone scientifically compared the effect of varied practice to the effect of the method described in the article. I hope this team of scientists will not stop their research in that field, too, and we will see new, more detailed experiments in the future.

But maybe we could combine the effect of this method with varied practice? What if we practiced two passages alternately with 10 seconds pause before each set of repetitions?
Come to think of it, choosing between the two, I'd still bet on the short breaks rather than varied practice. Because the article has shown that breaks are necessary for the brain to optimize motions, and non-stop practice, even when alternating passages, may keep the brain too busy, so the optimization may be less efficient.
It seems I must get my words back. Probably it's not enough time to come to final conclusions, I've been testing this approach for only one week now, and it's only my personal observations, nothing scientific, but by far I clearly see that it loses to varied practice mentioned by Qazsedcft. I have no explanation for this.

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Its about PPI ( post practice improvement ) you internalize data you learnt when you are resting



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