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Originally Posted by Terry Michael
I would be curious as to your thoughts on the pedals. Are they very stiff? (I really wish manufacturers would provide pressure poundage on pedals)
IT’s still very stiff.

OMG this piano is amazing anyway...
acoustic sound have no replacement but the touch on this novus... I love it


Evolution: Crappy €200 piano with termites included (1994/2001)-> Kawai CA-5 (2001/2019) -> Kawai K300 (2019)-> iphone garage band piano (2019/2021) -> Kawai NV-10S
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http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/galleries/3124510/unboxing-nv-10s.html#Post3124510

check on the last picture I upload, looks like they add a hole for the front speakers there, or is it present in the 10 model also?


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Good catch on the hole!

I’m not sure if the ‘10’ has this hole, but I’m sure Gombessa can check for this.......

Also, tell us about the speakers in general, are they really good or just okay?

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Originally Posted by Pete14
Good catch on the hole!

I’m not sure if the ‘10’ has this hole, but I’m sure Gombessa can check for this.......

The fabric mesh is the same, but I don't see an open slit/gap that goes all the way across the gap. Instead, on the NV-10, there are two circular cutouts where the tweeters are mounted.


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Thanks, Gombessa.

So basically the ‘mesh/grill’ does not run from edge to edge on the ‘10’, but rather there are two ‘holes’ (at the opposite edges) for the tweeters?

I tend to like the mesh running from edge to edge because not only the tweeters but also the overall sound can ‘escape’ through the mesh and directly to the player. The Clavinova 785\775 have this mesh/grill running across, too. Sadly, the N1X does not, but I hope the next iteration (N1SEX) incorporates the edge-to-edge mesh/grill.

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Originally Posted by Pete14
Thanks, Gombessa.

So basically the ‘mesh/grill’ does not run from edge to edge on the ‘10’, but rather there are two ‘holes’ (at the opposite edges) for the tweeters?

I tend to like the mesh running from edge to edge because not only the tweeters but also the overall sound can ‘escape’ through the mesh and directly to the player. The Clavinova 785\775 have this mesh/grill running across, too. Sadly, the N1X does not, but I hope the next iteration (N1SEX) incorporates the edge-to-edge mesh/grill.


The mesh itself runs all the way across the length of the keyboard, but it looks like the mesh covers a solid plank of wood (except for the cutouts in the wood for the tweeters. No idea if it makes a difference or not smile


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Oh, I see. I was not aware that the ‘10’ had this mesh running from edge to edge.

It seems to me like there might not be any difference between the two models in this regard after all.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Prices are entirely negotiable.

You would become a very aggravated customer if you where to shop in the Netherlands, at least in the south where I am.

If you just buy a piano, then there isn't anything to negotiate for with most retailers, because they all have the same price. The only leverage I _ever_ got was on an organ (The Roland AT-300); I could flat-out state: "There's a music store just across the border in Germany that sells this organ for €300 less than you do." In the end I got the organ for €200 less and a free bench.

In the Netherlands, at least in my area, the negotiation goes through trade-in instruments, or accessories. For example: If you buy a CA-99 for €3999 and a €100, that's what you're going to pay. If you buy a CA-999 for €3999 and a €675 hydraulic concert style bench, you can probably make a "round price" of €4500 for a €175 discount. Upgrade to the €6.000 NV-5s, I wouldn't be surprised if you can manage €6400. And with an NV-10s for €8999, you can possibly manage €9350.

If you call the day after and ask "what could be done" if they scrap the entire digital and go for the €15K GL-30, they'll probably give you the bench for free. And if you ask for a Sennheisder HD599 "so you have a nice complete set", you'll probably get that for free as well.

If you have a trade-in instrument, the trade-in price will be (much) higher the more expensive the instrument is that you buy.

But negotiation about only the instrument price, on a digital piano that costs the same in all the shops, give or take €25? Haven't seen it here in the south; never managed it with any instrument.

Last edited by Falsch; 06/04/21 07:18 PM.

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@Falsch: You're stuck on how much a piano "costs" ... and you throw away the negotiation.

That doesn't make sense. The price is not the price. Rather, the price is the **result of the negotiation**.

You say that you haven't seen negotiation? Well ... errrr ... have you tried it for yourself?

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Originally Posted by rafaelzb
http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/galleries/3124510/unboxing-nv-10s.html#Post3124510

check on the last picture I upload, looks like they add a hole for the front speakers there, or is it present in the 10 model also?

It is also present in NV10. I put a piece of rubber to prevent it to fall down as time goes by. The damper pedal stiffness is a very easy to fix issue. You can replace the spring with a lighter one. I did so and it worked well.


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Hello,

@MacMacMac, As pricing and negotiating go, there are cultural differences in different parts of the world.

The situation sketch that @Falsch gives for The Netherlands, is generally correct. Haggling room is nowhere as significant over here as it apparently is in your experience.

In some markets, such as cars, building contracts, second hand goods (privately sold), negotiating is somewhat more customary over here.

Cheers and happy negotiations (where appropriate),

HZ

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
@Falsch: You're stuck on how much a piano "costs" ... and you throw away the negotiation.

That doesn't make sense. The price is not the price. Rather, the price is the **result of the negotiation**.

You say that you haven't seen negotiation? Well ... errrr ... have you tried it for yourself?

@MacMacMac. Please let us know the price you finally paid for your long expected new hybrid piano; after you worked your famous negotiation strategies. After all you seem to be the absolute expert in this field.


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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,

@MacMacMac, As pricing and negotiating go, there are cultural differences in different parts of the world.

The situation sketch that @Falsch gives for The Netherlands, is generally correct. Haggling room is nowhere as significant over here as it apparently is in your experience.

In some markets, such as cars, building contracts, second hand goods (privately sold), negotiating is somewhat more customary over here.

Cheers and happy negotiations (where appropriate),

HZ

The retail culture is in general very different in American vs Europe. Here I’m Europe’s retailers compete by already selling products way under RRP and manufacture are not allowed to dictate what price the retailers will set. So any room for negotiation by customers are thrown away by already having really low margins.

It’s easy to see this also is applicable at least on digital pianos by just checking the prices on websites. smile

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@Boboulus: Are you sure that dealers have low margins? How low? And how can you know what those margins are? Do you work in the piano business?

As for "haggling room" ... two things:

1. I don't haggle. I decide how much I'm willing to pay and I make an offer. I don't think of that as haggling.

2. As for not having room to get a reduced price, I don't see the evidence.

Looking at the prices paid spreadsheet and filtering only for pianos purchased in Euros (which is the market referred to above), I see lots of examples where there's plenty of "room".

I see that Pero Ruiz paid less for his ES100 at a shop (€1471 including tax) than did JoeT did online (€1659 excluding tax).

In France, Bro' and jgbs paid the same price for an N1X at the same store, one month apart.
But CyberGene paid €1230 EUR more (18% more than Bro) ten months later.
And Frederic L paid €800 EUR more (12% more than Bro) at a different location in France.

You can browse the numbers for yourself and find many such examples.
(Filter for "EUR" in the price-paid column and then sort by model.)

There's always room to negotiate. But the dealer won't start the negotiation. Only the buyer can do that.

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Hello,

Whenever I am in the States and discuss the differences between Europe and the US over dinner or over a nice beer with my American friends, we are often baffled how significant these differences are.

With many Americans, I hear that is often hard to grasp. Europe is a group of countries with hugely varying demographics, cultures, economic situations, tax systems, business ethics and retail customs.

The differences between countries, and even regions within countries, are way, way beyond the US state to state differences. Or even the differences between the US and Canada, for instance.

In this light, @Falsch and @Boboulus give accurate reports on the situations you're most likely to encounter in our neck of the woods--or some very different necks of some very different woods, that is.

Cheers and happy savoring of cultural differences,

HZ

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Mac, are you sure about the exact dates? Because I purchased the N1X on March 5, 2019, pretty soon after it was announced, so I doubt there are people who purchased theirs 10 months prior to mine. Maybe a month or two would be more realistic. The N1X first appeared for ordering at Thomann on February 13, just a few weeks earlier. Expectedly a month later after I purchased mine it was €500 off. So I paid premium because I was an early adopter.


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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
@Falsch: You're stuck on how much a piano "costs" ... and you throw away the negotiation.

That doesn't make sense. The price is not the price. Rather, the price is the **result of the negotiation**.

You say that you haven't seen negotiation? Well ... errrr ... have you tried it for yourself?

Sure I tried. You just get dismissed with "Sorry, can't do. You have to try somewhere else. If you want it cheaper, look second-hand." Try negotiating with a big box retailer that shifts hundreds of piano's a month, especially if there's not enough stock. "I want it cheaper" is not going to work if there are 10 other people available who are willing to pay the asking price.

When I bought my NV-10, it was sold out _everywhere_ in the Netherlands (I wasn't able to find a retailer with stock), and it was sold out in all places I looked in Germany (5 in total). Every shop had a waiting list of 2-4 customers.

In the end I went with the retailer I always end up because, even though I can't negotiate the instrument's price, everything else _is_ negotiable, and he gives trade-in prices for instruments that are _almost_ as high as you could ever get when selling privately, especially if you buy an expensive instrument.

And the negotiations there are easy for me. If I want the piano to be "cheaper", I'll just ask for a better trade-in deal, or "give me the bench at cost" or a combination. That combination makes the total purchase price lower.


My NV-10 (€8.980) + bench (€500) would come to €9480 in total.
The estimate for the LX-17 + bench was €2450, which was low (but obviously the dealer always starts out low.)

I would therefore pay €7.030 if I didn't negotiate. In the end I paid €6.000, and a token price for the bench. That deal therefore saved me about €1.000.

Had I just bought the NV-10? Forget it. I _might_ have gotten a nice round price of €8.900 because I've been a customer there for 20 years (and before I bought my own instruments, my parents were the customer).

I never tried to buy a €50K acoustic piano though. It might be different with that, and there are huge amounts of 5-30 year old acoustics around, from small retailers that have some, to shops that specialize in second-hand Yamaha and Kawai acoustics. It's easy to go someplace else. But for 13-in-a-dozen digitals that cost the same everywhere? For digital piano's in the €9K range of which the dealer says he can ship more than he can even order? Forget it.

Last edited by Falsch; 06/05/21 07:26 AM.

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Originally Posted by Boboulus
Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,

@MacMacMac, As pricing and negotiating go, there are cultural differences in different parts of the world.

The situation sketch that @Falsch gives for The Netherlands, is generally correct. Haggling room is nowhere as significant over here as it apparently is in your experience.

In some markets, such as cars, building contracts, second hand goods (privately sold), negotiating is somewhat more customary over here.

Cheers and happy negotiations (where appropriate),

HZ

The retail culture is in general very different in American vs Europe. Here I’m Europe’s retailers compete by already selling products way under RRP and manufacture are not allowed to dictate what price the retailers will set. So any room for negotiation by customers are thrown away by already having really low margins.

It’s easy to see this also is applicable at least on digital pianos by just checking the prices on websites. smile

This, as well. You _NEVER_ see a product for the MSRP over here; the only store that sells a product at MSRP is the manufacturer's webshop, if they have one. Why? Because they don't want you to buy the product directly with them. If you do, they are the seller and they have to handle warranty claims. They want you to buy the product at a retailer.

Therefore the manufacturer sets the MSRP in his shop, and the retailers compete on price. If you want it cheaper (for example, with a laptop or electronics), you don't haggle, you just go to a different retailer. Some have "lowest price guarantee": if you can prove to them that a different shop has a lower price (but is not a webshop), they'll match it. Some webshops have a lowest price guarantee as well. So, you still don't negotiate: you just point out: "They are cheaper", and then the retailer can decide to match that price, or not. If they don't, you go to the other retailer. If they do, it's seen as anti-social to try and get it even lower.

With digital piano's, that goes out the window, because they cost the same _everywhere_, within a small margin. You might find a price difference of €100 for really expensive instruments, but if you have to go and negotiate €100 on a 10K instrument, lest you can't afford it, then you shouldn't be buying it anyway.


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Given the current shortages of pianos and other goods it's no surprise that it is now more difficult to negotiate bargains. That is why my long-anticipated piano purchase will not happen this year.

@CyberGene: You're right. I gave the wrong information for the N1X purchases. Your purchase was 1 month later, not 10 months later. Sorry.

@HZ: You mentioned that "Europe is a group of countries with hugely varying demographics, cultures, economic situations, tax systems, business ethics and retail customs."
Well, the US is a group of states with hugely varying demographics, cultures, etc.

Try comparing a cowboy-hat wearing Texan to a three-piece suited Bostonian, or a golf-shoe wearing retiree in Florida, or a valley girl in the California bay area.

As for taxation ... variation here is far greater than in Europe.
From no income tax in five states to high income tax in others.
From high to low in sales tax (akin to VAT). And extra sales tax in this city, but not that other one.
There are over a 1000 different retail sales rules across the US.

And likewise for customs.

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IMHO, for standard pianistic goods like a Clavinova and all DP's including high-end hybrids like the NV5 S and NV10 S, and even acoustic mainstays like the C2X or K500, the European retail price is the same everywhere (with no haggling) and is de facto decided by Thomann in Germany, because nigh every buyer knows about them and will check their listing. The Thomann price is always quite low, and the company, which is family-owned and has no outside shareholders to satisfy, is very consumer-friendly. It is true, as Falsch says, that your neighboorhood brick and mortar dealer may sweeten the deal on accessories and trade-in's, but the price will be the same. (This is why Thomann often offers "set" deals with accessories). And VAT (a form of sales tax) in the core European markets is always more or less the same at 20%.

The prices are generally lower than in the US, but you cannot escape sales tax as you can sometimes do by buying out-of-state. I remember last year when I advertised the Thomann price for their version of a Samick 6 foot grand, the panicked outcry from US consultants claiming that conditions in the US and Europe were very different...

The next problem of course is how to make sure Thomann stays honest when they have such pricing power. So far they've been good, but it would help if second tier internet sellers could keep them in check by offering a "slightly below Thomann" price. Of course this won't happen in the current environment of merchandise shortage. A good candidate would be Woodbrass, a French outfit with an english name, which is perhaps the runner-up.


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