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Haha I'm sure you can enhance your argument with "but I know people who have SIX pianos!" 😂😂😂


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Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Originally Posted by Talão
I'm surprised by this post because, after a lot of research, I had gotten to the conclusion that one of the best (as in most realistic) actions on a digital piano that you can get on the market is the one on the MP11SE. I was actually thinking of upgrading my Yamaha P125 to an MP11SE (in my case, I do 50% of my practice on a digital and 50% on an acoustic). There's still the issue of price, of course. The MP11SE is under 3K, while a new NV10 is like 10K. I guess I'm going to need to do more research, oh well...

Hi Talão. So the MP11SE still has one of the best digital actions out there, and its piano samples sound better than the N1's samples to me. It also has a better interface and far more instrument samples. However, the actions are two different animals. The MP11SE was designed as a digital, which means relatively lightweight and portable. It has a simulated grand action, not an actual one. Otherwise it would be way too heavy. That's why the action on the MP11SE is called "Grand Feel." It feels like or simulates a grand action as best it can, as any other digital does.

A hybrid on the other hand, like an N1, uses an actual grand action, albeit with modifications to accommodate an electronic pickup. These action models show the difference between the two. Here's the MP11SE action, albeit this model is a GFII whereas the MP11SE has the GF1, but the models look similar:

[Linked Image]


Here's a hybrid model from an N1X:

[Linked Image]


And here's the whole action:

[Linked Image]


So as you can see, the hybrid action is an actual acoustic action, with gravity instead of springs to return the key. As a result, there is much more inertia in the system, and I think that is the difference I am feeling. You may already know all this, so sorry if it's redundant.

The MP11SE is still a fine choice as a practice piano, and it's about 1/4 the price of a hybrid. You can learn all your pieces on it, and depending on the type of piece, pretty much perfect it as well. If your practice is 50% on an acoustic, then you may not need a hybrid. My main complaint with the digital is the lower inertia in the keyboard, but a stiffer keyboard may compensate for that to an extent. I hear the Yamaha P515 has a heavier feeling action, and the piano is much lighter than the MP11SE so may be worth a try. Search for dariapiano on YouTube, she is a fine pianist and seems to do most of her practicing on the P515. Good luck!

Hi Emery,

Thank you very much for the detailed answer and explanation. I really appreciate it. I understand it better now. The "1/4 of the price" is a significant factor. So perhaps what I'm after is: what is the best action on a digital under $3K? And it seems the MP11SE or the P515 may be two of the top contenders there.


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Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
Well, after 3 months and 3 weeks, my initial enthusiasm has highly diminished

I can relate, but for a different instrument. Nord Stage 3. Thought it would be awesome but the piano library never cut it for me. Other features are good.

Originally Posted by Del Vento
My next steps (in no particular order, probably concurrently) will be:

- mount the electronics
- do fine regulation
- (re)build the cabinet

I hope to finish it by September

Awesome!! Looking forward to hearing about the finished result.

And I finally got around to updating some videos on my progress. See link in signature.

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Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Thanks to everyone for their thoughtful comments, especially Del Vento. I decided to pull the trigger on the N1. Were I younger or with more time, I definitely would be tempted to build a hybrid or try other options. But for now, the N1 is the shortest distance between me and my goals, I believe.

As for the Kurtzmann, that piano is located at my office, and I've committed to adding a piano to the conference room. Therefore the time I'll spend finishing that piano is already banked, so to speak.

Back to the N1, that thing is a beast. It just fit in our minivan (thank you Chrysler Pacifica with the fold down middle and rear seats), and wasn't exactly easy to haul up to the second floor. But it's sitting in my room now, I just need to screw the base to the top section and move it into place when I get off work.

You are most welcome. And congratulations on your new instrument! Keep us posted on how you'll like it!

Originally Posted by Emery Wang
All the while, my intrepid wife cannot understand why we need 3 pianos in the house.

FWIW, I have the same "problem". In my case, two instruments are sufficient, but the third (and occasionally the fourth or fifth) has existed for logistical reasons, such as now that I am building an hybrid. Or when I upgraded e.g. from upright to grand (I bought the grand as private sale, and I sold the upright likewise -- with a 4 months in between just because that's how the purchasing and selling worked). Or when I upgraded from a 4'10 grand to a 6'2" (i.e. now!) -- this time I put the nicer grand in storage, and I was fortunate enough to sell the smaller one in just 3 weeks. It'll go next Tuesday and the new-to-me will come a week after that. But I digress again, just to related with you: we have similar first world problems.

Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Wife remains unconvinced, but maybe one day she'll come around.

Rather than hoping this way (as I was doing myself), try to understand what are her values and priorities, then work with that. For example, in my case she valued neat living room and more square footage more than money (whereas I believe we have enough square footage and not enough money, and a very untidy home -- hence I was acting with those priorities). Having understood that, made me decide to go with the storage, which turned out to be not too big of an expense and keep her happy with this other transaction. I will report on that once I have the instrument in my house, since I still can't believe I made it, and still fear something could go wrong.....

Originally Posted by Emery Wang
I'm listening to Zhu Xiao Mei perform the Goldberg Variations on YouTube right now. Her Wikipedia page states that

Thanks for mentioning Zhu Xiao Mei. If you are in this mood, listen to and study the life of Gyorgy Cziffra too. War, prison camp, forced labor which ruined his arms and hands (but he overcome and kept playing). Then when things seemed to have settled his son (promising pianist too!) died in a apartment fire...

If you haven't already, watch his rendering of the Fantasie Impromptu at



and notice how nicely (not only technically, but also emotionally) he plays. Despite tremors in the hands, which you can clearly see...

Just a reminder to us all (myself before all) to be happy with what we have and work as reasonably hard for what (and/or who) we love.

Again, congrats on the new instrument!

Last edited by Del Vento; 05/28/21 09:15 PM.
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Originally Posted by Talão
Hi Emery,

Thank you very much for the detailed answer and explanation. I really appreciate it. I understand it better now. The "1/4 of the price" is a significant factor. So perhaps what I'm after is: what is the best action on a digital under $3K? And it seems the MP11SE or the P515 may be two of the top contenders there.

Hi Talão. I don't think you could go wrong with either Yamaha or Kawai. The P515 is about $1k cheaper than the MP11SE, so I'd check that out if I were you. Best is if you can get to a store and try some of these pianos. Roland and Casio make good digitals in this price range I hear, but I have never played them. Search for "Merriam music" on YouTube. Stu Harrison does good reviews of most of the major digital piano models.

Good luck with your search!


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Hi Del Vento. I didn't know this about Cziffra. What an amazing comeback. Next time I have a complaint about pianos or playing the piano, just slap me upside the head.

As for the all-important wife factor: now that she sees how much I'm enjoying the action on the N1, and the fact the MP11SE may be a good option for one of our kid's dorm rooms when they go to college, she seems to be coming around.

I've played the N1 for a couple days now and I really like the action. It has given me a new appreciation for Yamaha actions, and although it feels heavy to me, it's very precise, and I have fewer ghost notes with the tighter action. Now my Petrof feels relatively light, which is what I was hoping for.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.


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Here's a pic of my practice room with the N1 hauled in. So far I am really liking it a lot. Feels so much more substantial than the digital. I'll have to see what happens at the 3 month mark, Dave Ferris. Hopefully the honeymoon lasts smile

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Emery Wang; 05/31/21 09:36 AM.

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Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Here's a pic of my practice room with the N1 hauled in. So far I am really liking it a lot. Feels so much more substantial than the digital. I'll have to see what happens at the 3 month mark, Dave Ferris. Hopefully the honeymoon lasts smile

Nice setup! If I had to make a bet, I think you will get tired about the sound first, and you have options (told you about my favorite ones, you will find many more in the digital forum, or ask me if you want more details "for digital piano dummies" who prefer an acoustic sound, like myself). Nothing beats the "push-button-and-play" convenience, though, so wait and see if you do become tired about it before attempting alternatives.

As also mentioned before, the action is certainly not the same as a Yamaha concert grand, yet it's a solid inexpensive grand action, which I find nothing to sneeze at. And since you are a PT, you can adjust and regulate yourself, pretty much like an acoustic one. Search for the service manual in the digital forum, it'll tell you how to best disassemble it to reach the various parts (and many more details). As an owner of a Yamaha NU1 myself, I can add that these instruments are extremely well built, well documented, and relatively easy to service (my only complaint is that they made it marginally hard to open, I believe to discourage DIY, but that did not succeed with me smile and I suspect it won't with you either)

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Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Originally Posted by Talão
Hi Emery,

Thank you very much for the detailed answer and explanation. I really appreciate it. I understand it better now. The "1/4 of the price" is a significant factor. So perhaps what I'm after is: what is the best action on a digital under $3K? And it seems the MP11SE or the P515 may be two of the top contenders there.

Hi Talão. I don't think you could go wrong with either Yamaha or Kawai. The P515 is about $1k cheaper than the MP11SE, so I'd check that out if I were you. Best is if you can get to a store and try some of these pianos. Roland and Casio make good digitals in this price range I hear, but I have never played them. Search for "Merriam music" on YouTube. Stu Harrison does good reviews of most of the major digital piano models.

Good luck with your search!

Yes. My plan is definitely try both the P515 and MP11SE before making a final decision. The issue is that the Miami area is quite poor when it comes to piano variety. My closest Yamaha+Kawai dealer doesn't carry these, so I may need to wait until I travel somewhere to find them. When I was doing research before buying my U3, I played many different pianos (took advantage of 2 trips), digital and acoustic, including Rolands. There's something about the Roland digital sound that doesn't please my ears (purely subjective). As far as digitals are concerned, I find Yamaha's samples a bit better than Kawai's. Have not tried a Casio (although the GP500 was on my list, I wasn't able to get to one). Key surface is also another attribute that will weigh heavily on my decision. I have oily/sweaty hands and I want a surface that handles that well. This is my biggest complaint about the U3. I keep a microfiber cloth next to he piano and wipe the key tops (and my hands) with some frequency.


Talão

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Originally Posted by Del Vento
Nice setup! If I had to make a bet, I think you will get tired about the sound first, and you have options (told you about my favorite ones, you will find many more in the digital forum, or ask me if you want more details "for digital piano dummies" who prefer an acoustic sound, like myself). Nothing beats the "push-button-and-play" convenience, though, so wait and see if you do become tired about it before attempting alternatives.

I'll probably go down the VST rabbit hole some day, but for now the push button convenience wins. Plus the sound is just fine for practice. The only thing is that through headphones, the sound is more precise and focused than my acoustic piano, probably because I don't have that perfect acoustic environment they did when they recorded the samples. Plus the headphones isolate me from sound bouncing around the room, and any background noise. That can be a good thing because I can better hear inaccuracies in my playing, but there is an adjustment going from the precision of headphones back to live acoustic sound.

I do, however, feel my finger strength improving already.

Glad to know the N1 is DIY friendly, hopefully won't have to crack it open anytime soon.


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Looks nice Emery, given your energy level I predict you will be off in VST land pretty soon.


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I guess I’m a bit late to this thread but I was in a similar situation. I recently upgraded by Niendorf baby grand to a Shigeru Kawai. Like yourself my time on the acoustic grand is limited and I generally like to play on the grand and practice on my Yamaha U1 silent play. However, I started getting very tired of the feel of the blocking bar on the silent play mode. Initially, I thought about getting a Hoffman with the Bechstein Vario play but realised it was a bit of an overkill seeing that I already have a great acoustic grand.

Having had 2 Clavinovas I decided to avoid a third. I tried the Kawai CA99 but wasn’t quite convinced. Finally, after much analysis and research, I ended up ordering a Casio GP510 after trying the GP500. In my case, I concluded that I just wanted a good action for practicing and the sound is “secondary”. The Casio has spruce keys made by Bechstein with a “grand action”. It is not exactly a hybrid like the Novus but the feel of the action for it’s price point is pretty impressive. Coupled with the fact that it has the sound sampling of the Berlin, Hamburg and Vienna grands (aka Bechstein, Steinway & Bosendorfer), I decided it’d be a great “toy”.. How else can I have a Shigeru Kawai, “Steinway, Bechstein & Bosendorfer” in my home?.😂😂 The sound is not as good as the Novus 5 or 10 but I save $3,000!!


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Quote
. . . The only thing is that through headphones, the sound is more precise and focused than my acoustic piano, probably because I don't have that perfect acoustic environment they did when they recorded the samples. Plus the headphones isolate me from sound bouncing around the room, and any background noise. That can be a good thing because I can better hear inaccuracies in my playing, but there is an adjustment going from the precision of headphones back to live acoustic sound. . . .

FWIW --

That "too-clean" sound can be changed. Two things you might try, to get your DP to sound more like an acoustic piano (especially with headphones):

(a) Add some reverb to the sound.

Different DP's call this effect by different names -- reverb, "hall", etc -- but it adds the sound of a simulated room (you pick the size) to the base sample (or modelled) sound.

In most DP's, you can also pick _how much_ reverb you want -- the ratio between "direct" and "reflected" sound. Not all models let you do that. (With VST's, you get _lots_ of choices to play with.)

(b) If your DP has "string resonance", and it's adjustable:

. . . Set the "string resonance" to a higher-than-default value.

That will give you a richer, more-complex tone when playing. It's an important part of the sound of any acoustic piano. The DP engineers seem to have decided that they'll implement it, but use a default intensity that's lower than most acoustic pianos, to give a "cleaner" sound:

. . . so tweak it to your taste, not to their taste.

Have fun --


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Since I teased it here, let me post a link (without hijacking this thread): http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/topics/3125869.html

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Originally Posted by Kitkat65
Like yourself my time on the acoustic grand is limited and I generally like to play on the grand and practice on my Yamaha U1 silent play. However, I started getting very tired of the feel of the blocking bar on the silent play mode.

This is likely because the action regulation is wrong, and this can (if you are lucky, very easily) be fixed. In a silent piano the blocking bar should catch the hammer just before it hits the string, but *after* it is released from the jack. The blocking of the hammer cannot be felt then, just like you do not feel the hammer being 'blocked' when it hits the string in a non-silent acoustic. It is disconnected at that moment. For this reason, on a silent there should be zero difference in feel between acoustic and silent modes.

When regulation is wrong, the silence bar may block the hammer just before/at release, when it hasn't disconnected yet. The exact position of the silencing bar can easily be corrected by a technician (or even yourself). Alternatively, hammer let-off is wrong, and that is a little more work to fix and probably best done by a technician.

Anyway, you have a Casio GP510 now so the above is not so useful for you anymore. I thought I'd chime in anyway in case there are other people experiencing this.

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Originally Posted by pianogabe
on a silent there should be zero difference in feel between acoustic and silent modes.

I'm happy to accept that and as I haven't played a Yamaha upright in silent mode have no experience to the contrary. However I don't think that is the correct comparison, the better question is what a U1 or similar fitted with the silent system is like to play compared to another U1 that does not have the silent mechanisms added. All three of the silent U1s I played had a more limited touch and feel than the simple acoustic models, now maybe that is a just coincidence and they all needed regulation but my understanding is that the silent system does reduce available key travel and the knock on effect of that is a change in touch and response. I'm sure some of the folks on the technicians forum have more detail on this and the system might have varied over the years so I guess the usual rule applies "don't assume anything from the specs but go and actually play the piano for yourself".

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Originally Posted by gwing
Originally Posted by pianogabe
on a silent there should be zero difference in feel between acoustic and silent modes.

I'm happy to accept that and as I haven't played a Yamaha upright in silent mode have no experience to the contrary. However I don't think that is the correct comparison, the better question is what a U1 or similar fitted with the silent system is like to play compared to another U1 that does not have the silent mechanisms added.

Well, for the problem at hand the within-piano comparison of touch is the correct one. All I am saying is that there should be no within-piano differences in touch, and you should not feel the silencing bar. If you do, there is something wrong that is most likely fixable.

Independent of this, the problem with cheaper silent systems installations can be that, as you say, the let-off distance has been set too large. Apparently this is done to save time (=money) at installation time and perhaps to avoid the need for additional regulation later. This is the easiest way to keep the silent mode silent, but at the cost of the quality of touch. But even then the touch should be the identical between modes within the same piano. Non-optimal regulation of the silent action can be fixed by a technician later. But it costs money because the let-off distance needs to be adjusted for every single key separately.

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Originally Posted by pianogabe
Originally Posted by Kitkat65
Like yourself my time on the acoustic grand is limited and I generally like to play on the grand and practice on my Yamaha U1 silent play. However, I started getting very tired of the feel of the blocking bar on the silent play mode.

This is likely because the action regulation is wrong, and this can (if you are lucky, very easily) be fixed. In a silent piano the blocking bar should catch the hammer just before it hits the string, but *after* it is released from the jack. The blocking of the hammer cannot be felt then, just like you do not feel the hammer being 'blocked' when it hits the string in a non-silent acoustic. It is disconnected at that moment. For this reason, on a silent there should be zero difference in feel between acoustic and silent modes.

When regulation is wrong, the silence bar may block the hammer just before/at release, when it hasn't disconnected yet. The exact position of the silencing bar can easily be corrected by a technician (or even yourself). Alternatively, hammer let-off is wrong, and that is a little more work to fix and probably best done by a technician.

Anyway, you have a Casio GP510 now so the above is not so useful for you anymore. I thought I'd chime in anyway in case there are other people experiencing this.

Thank you so much for your feedback! And it makes a difference and is totally relevant as the piano is still within the family since I gave it to my brother!

It makes sense and I am pretty sure my bar is set far too early as it is extremely noisy when I play on headphones. Sometimes I wondered if it was even more annoying for the people in the room than hearing my practising!! Apparently with the factory fitted Bechstein Vario System and Kawai Aures, reviewers noted that there was hardly any difference in feel between acoustic and silent mode. I guess these factory fitted ones get the regulation right.

My U1 in Acoustic mode felt perfectly fine but I will ask my technician to look into the positioning of the blocking bar for silent play function. Many thanks! Much appreciated..


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Originally Posted by Kitkat65
My U1 in Acoustic mode felt perfectly fine but I will ask my technician to look into the positioning of the blocking bar for silent play function. Many thanks! Much appreciated..

That could be the problem. When doing regulation, the technician could regulate for the instrument being perfect for acoustic, perfect for silent or at an intermediate point which won't be perfect for either, but should be decent for both.

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