2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
40 members (Gene Nelson, beeboss, ando, drumour, AlphaBravoCharlie, fatar760, EssBrace, EB5AGV, DSC, 8 invisible), 1,316 guests, and 598 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 138 of 147 1 2 136 137 138 139 140 146 147
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 544
E
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 544
Haha, I could imagine a kawai manager going up to the dealer and giving him an upside his head. grin Maybe kawai james will send a strongly worded letter for for km123.

Shameful.

Joined: May 2021
Posts: 5
K
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
K
Joined: May 2021
Posts: 5
Thanks for your feedback.

@KawaiJames
Thank you, I will send you the information if needed once I have an answer from my dealer.

If the headphone support is my dealer's fault, sorry for Kawai.
This part is an insignificant detail compared to the scale of the piano. If I did the mistake myself, It wouldn't be a big deal. I would have fixed it again at corrrect position, correct screw angle, and no one will notice.

I just don't get how the manufacturer employee or store employee who has assembled this could think "well, nice work", or "Damn I still can't use a screwdriver... Let's hope no one will notice. After all it's not a 30 000$ piano, the customer won't complain about that".
This detail is a sign of a lack of thoroughness, that is what disturbs me.

Honestly I wouldn't even have written a post here if the only issue were the untightened screw. Although it should not happen if it were assembled and controlled following the right procedures (otherwise the whole piano will dismantle by itself after a few months of playing laugh ) it is still a human mistake.

Last edited by km123; 05/24/21 09:06 AM.
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 41
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by km123
Am I over reacting ?
No you are not.
I have one in EP finish and it is in superb condition. No scratches, nothing torn, nothing loose. Absolutely immaculate and pristine condition with mint flavour. As you would expect for that price!
Those faults are completely unacceptable and I’d demand a new product, no repair or whatever. Seeing that, I suspect more faults that you didn’t notice yet. (Possibly internal due to mishandling)

As Kawai James said the headphone support came in a separate bag and I attached it myself. The holes were already drilled so you only need a screwdriver. It takes a bit of time but it can be done with perfect results.

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,669
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,669
Originally Posted by km123
[...]After all it's not a 30 000$ piano, the customer won't complain about that".
This detail is a sign of a lack of thoroughness, that is what disturbs me.[...]
Yeah, IMHO a product from a good company has to be perfectly assembled regardless of its price. But I cannot imagine a Kawai employer making this type of amateurish mistakes in the assembly of a top-range digital piano...

From your posted pictures it looks to me that the product was a "refurbished" one but sold as brand new. Think of the products on display, demo units, or those returned after a few days by unhappy customers...

Joined: May 2021
Posts: 5
K
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
K
Joined: May 2021
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by magicpiano
From your posted pictures it looks to me that the product was a "refurbished" one but sold as brand new. Think of the products on display, demo units, or those returned after a few days by unhappy customers...

Maybe you're right. It looks like it passed through the hands of a careless customer before... That could explain the bump on the panel too. I can see a layer of dust on the intersection of wood parts too (places difficult of access when cleaning).
As it came already unpackaged (it was brought inside the house by transporter, premium delivery by the dealer), it's hard to make a conclusion. The dealer obviously needed to unpackage it to add the shop label on the keyboard side. There were still the wrapping on the pedals and the protection on the screen though.

I doubt that well known dealer in my country would take the risk to do this. Normally the piano serial number should allow a tracking of the product. But who knows...

Last edited by km123; 05/24/21 03:27 PM.
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 30
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 30
Km123

You are not over reacting...that is totally unacceptable.....but these are not the result of poor QC from Kawai. My CA99 was in immaculate factory fresh condition. The headphone hook is user installed as others have said. Your piano is not new from factory, and in my opinion your issues are with the dealer. Even a shop demo model should not end up like this. Your instrument has been abused by uncaring, unprofessional idiots.

Follow Kawai James’ advice.

Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 51
E
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
E
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 51
Like others I do suspect this isn't Kawai's fault. It has all the signs of having been mishandled by the dealer. It's seriously illegal to sell something as new which isn't 'factory new', but they do it. I've had it happen and it's a reason to call them out on it in very strong terms. Whoever they are, they won't want you to put word out there that they're doing it.
It's very possible that they'll send you a new unit and sell this one to some other customer, in hope that other customer won't complain.
This should be taken to Kawai itself so that they know the disservice the dealer is doing them and the public.
They may also be counting on your having waited so much that you don't have the heart to dwell on 'minor' issues. But who knows what else is wrong with that unit? And if it's been through another owner, who knows why it was sent back?
Of course, before anything else, you should try to solve it amicably - but there should be little room for doubt on your demeanour when you address them.

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,514
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,514
Hello km123,

I received confirmation from one of my colleagues in R&D that the headphone hook and screw set are always packaged in a separate bag, and never installed at the factory.

For reference, this is how the headphone hook and screwset bag should look:

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by km123
I can see a layer of dust on the intersection of wood parts too (places difficult of access when cleaning).

Kawai pianos are assembled and packaged in a controlled environment - there should not be a spec of dust on a brand new piano.

Originally Posted by km123
As it came already unpackaged (it was brought inside the house by transporter, premium delivery by the dealer), it's hard to make a conclusion.
(emphasis mine)

This is an important detail that was unfortunately not included in your original post.

Brand new products should always be delivered in their original, sealed carton box, never without. I'm afraid to say that, as a manufacturer, Kawai cannot guarantee the quality of an instrument that does not arrive in this condition.

For reference, here is a CA99 unboxing video from a Kawai dealer that shows how a brand new instrument should arrive with the customer:



Originally Posted by km123
The dealer obviously needed to unpackage it to add the shop label on the keyboard side.

Personally, I'd prefer to receive an instrument without any additional badges or labels. If the dealer insists on adding their own branding, it should be at the consent of the customer, and attached to the instrument when delivered and unboxed at their home.

Originally Posted by km123
There were still the wrapping on the pedals and the protection on the screen though.

Unfortunately, this doesn't guarantee that the instrument you have received is brand new.

Once again, my recommendation would be to take this matter up with your dealer, and ask them to confirm whether or not the instrument you have received is brand new.

I would also be grateful if you could pass on the information that I requested previously.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,572
G
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,572
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by km123
The dealer obviously needed to unpackage it to add the shop label on the keyboard side.

Personally, I'd prefer to receive an instrument without any additional badges or labels. If the dealer insists on adding their own branding, it should be at the consent of the customer, and attached to the instrument when delivered and unboxed at their home.

Wow, this one triggered me big time! It's a huge pet peeve of mine, particularly dealers who affix their own badges on cars, or mechanics that replace your license plate frames with ones with their branding (yes, both happen).

I would NOT be happy with a DP that arrived at my home with any kind of dealer badge installed.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 141
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 141
It is an important case, because if it is dealer's fault, it has impacted negatively the perception of Kawai, that customers have, without any fault from Kawai.
(just look in this thread the rapid reaction of Einludov and AVS).
Does a DP has a kind of serial number, that dealers have to give to Kawai when a sale is made,in order to identify each items, and to be able to see if it is sold twice?

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 24
U
uuu Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
U
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 24
Many years ago (decades), I worked in a shop selling instruments (mostly electronic organs). They would always unbox an instrument in the showroom, test it, exercise it and fettle it to a state of perfection before delivery. Quite a few customers expressed disappointment at this approach, but they insisted it was a necessary step. It probably was, back then.

Joined: May 2021
Posts: 5
K
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
K
Joined: May 2021
Posts: 5
Thanks for your replies.
I wish I was more attentive during the delivery. I chose premium delivery (which costs 100€) to avoid this kind of inconvenience. I would have been more lucky with a standard free delivery in front of the door.

I inspected the piano in front of the delivery men, I didn't see all these things. I think I could just not believe it could be in bad shape with such a service. And for the fact it was unpackaged, it didn't catch my attention. I told myself big pianos are not delivered in big cardboard boxes anyway. But I was wrong.

Here is pictures of the dust deposit I can see. It shouldn't be there on a brand new product.
https://i.postimg.cc/9F7vdGQ9/IMG-3405.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/wjYn071G/IMG-3406.jpg

I will receive an anwser today, I'll let you know.

Joined: May 2021
Posts: 5
K
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
K
Joined: May 2021
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by playplayplay
It is an important case, because if it is dealer's fault, it has impacted negatively the perception of Kawai, that customers have, without any fault from Kawai.
(just look in this thread the rapid reaction of Einludov and AVS).
Does a DP has a kind of serial number, that dealers have to give to Kawai when a sale is made,in order to identify each items, and to be able to see if it is sold twice?

It has a serial number and a barcode. The serial number matches the one in the invoice (it doesn't mean anything). I believe Kawai can track their product (at least date of manufacturing, date of delivery to the dealer...)
Whatever happened with mine, the dealer can tell me anything, but between him and Kawai things will probably be clear.

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 141
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 141
Originally Posted by playplayplay
It is an important case, because if it is dealer's fault, it has impacted negatively the perception of Kawai, that customers have, without any fault from Kawai.
(just look in this thread the rapid reaction of Einludov and AVS).
Does a DP has a kind of serial number, that dealers have to give to Kawai when a sale is made,in order to identify each items, and to be able to see if it is sold twice?

Sorry AVS, I made a mistake, that was Arjen B and not AVS.
I just check the posts of Arjen B.
He is just saying how bad the CA99 is and by extension Kawai. In its first post he said that he would really like to trust Kawai and CA99 but he just can't, that is why he goes to Yamaha CLP785, which is better, more reliable and safer than Kawai, letting us understanding that he is not going to place an order for the CA99 but for the Yamaha. The next posts are about all the failure CA99 has and then in the fourth he said that something is wrong with time delivery with Kawai, and he will not cancel its order so far but he is close too, knowing that he can have a clp 785 within 2 weeks. He is just saying the opposite of what he was saying, allowing him to place another bad thing about Kawai.
I just don t understand these kind of posts. He is acting just like to say how good a competitor of Kawai and how bad the CA99 are.
I have seen a lot of peoples acting like that in the forum, for me it appears that they are working for the brand they are praising.
At least with kawai, there is Kawai James but we know he is working for Kawai, and as far as I have read he has never said that Yamaha, Roland, Casio, Korg are bad companies... A better behavior somehow. Although we could argue that seeing a representative of a brand in a forum could be a bit tendencious. On the other hand he is kind to help when needed.

Last edited by playplayplay; 05/25/21 04:02 AM.
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 41
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by km123
I will receive an anwser today, I'll let you know.

I hope the consumer laws in your country are strict enough that you‘ll be able to get a full refund (including delivery costs and return shipping) should you choose to do so (which I‘d recommend, that thing is in an awful condition).

Mine is now two months old and does not look as dusty as yours does. The only „dirt“ mine had were a few styrofoam balls that adhered due to static - that’s it.

I agree with James: I wouldn’t want a shop badge on my piano. I happily accept the manufacturer’s branding but not the shop‘s. Not on a single product of mine.


Something else: Anyone with a CA99 should try playing violin music over the speakers of the piano. It just sounds wonderful.

Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 18
A
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
A
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 18
Originally Posted by playplayplay
Originally Posted by playplayplay
It is an important case, because if it is dealer's fault, it has impacted negatively the perception of Kawai, that customers have, without any fault from Kawai.
(just look in this thread the rapid reaction of Einludov and AVS).
Does a DP has a kind of serial number, that dealers have to give to Kawai when a sale is made,in order to identify each items, and to be able to see if it is sold twice?

Sorry AVS, I made a mistake, that was Arjen B and not AVS.
I just check the posts of Arjen B.
He is just saying how bad the CA99 is and by extension Kawai. In its first post he said that he would really like to trust Kawai and CA99 but he just can't, that is why he goes to Yamaha CLP785, which is better, more reliable and safer than Kawai, letting us understanding that he is not going to place an order for the CA99 but for the Yamaha. The next posts are about all the failure CA99 has and then in the fourth he said that something is wrong with time delivery with Kawai, and he will not cancel its order so far but he is close too, knowing that he can have a clp 785 within 2 weeks. He is just saying the opposite of what he was saying, allowing him to place another bad thing about Kawai.
I just don t understand these kind of posts. He is acting just like to say how good a competitor of Kawai and how bad the CA99 are.
I have seen a lot of peoples acting like that in the forum, for me it appears that they are working for the brand they are praising.
At least with kawai, there is Kawai James but we know he is working for Kawai, and as far as I have read he has never said that Yamaha, Roland, Casio, Korg are bad companies... A better behavior somehow. Although we could argue that seeing a representative of a brand in a forum could be a bit tendencious. On the other hand he is kind to help when needed.

I can assure you I am not an employee of any piano company.

Here is the thing, I was looking for a good digital piano and I was doubting between the CLP-785 and Kawai CA99. I doubted between the two models, sometimes leaning towards the CLP-785 and other times towards the CA99. In the end I just liked the CA99 a lot better, but I could have the CLP-785 a lot earlier. I was worried about some of the production faults of the CA99, but I liked the CA99 very much, so I stood by my order.

That's when I started reading more into the software bugs and other issues and gave my order second thoughts. And yes I did express these concerns in the forum. I waited a bit to see if there would be communication from Kawai about an update, but there wasn't. In the end I got uncomfortable with my purchase and cancelled with pain in my heart.

The reason I'm comparing to Yamaha is because I want to emphasize that it's apparently perfectly possible for a piano manufacturer to produce reliable pianos. If Yamaha can do it, so can Kawai. The Kawai is the better sounding piano imo, but the Yamaha is a hundred fold more reliable. That's just a fact, merely based on the existence of a such a long forum thread. All I wish is the CA99 being on par with the CLP-785 in terms of reliability. I will not go for the CLP-785 because the sound is even worse than using a VST with cheap speakers on a cheap digital piano.

I am being negative about Kawai because, let's be honest, they deserve a bit of a kick under the butt. Issues have been reported for over a year but the company has given zero communication about this on their website. That's something that most other piano manufacturers would have done a lot better. But it is not my goal to shame Kawai as a company in general. There is a reason I went for their model, because their sound and action are top notch. I can assure anybody who is looking for a good digital piano, that nothing compares to the CA99 in terms of sound and action. If they improve their communication and bring out an update, I will be the first to order this model again.

I do apologize however about my reaction to the previous post about the headphone support. I did not realize it's a dealer installed part that has nothing to do with the factory. This did not become clear to me from the post alone, I'm sorry. This does not take away from the fact, however, that Kawai's quality control needs improvement.

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 141
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 141
If you told me you are not working for a piano companies or do not have special interest in directing people in buying a brand and not another one, I trust you.

But all your messages were really strange, and you were constantly contradicting yourself. I found your posts very tendencious, that is why I wrote mine. But you said now that for you the ca99 is better in action and sound than the clp-785. (assuming there is no quality problem)

My unique experience with Kawai is so far highly positive, I enjoy my slab I bought 6 months ago and which was delivered in 2 days, I love the sound and the action, no deficiencies or bad quality on my DP. So Kawai is very reliable in my own experience. (so far).
Having said that, I am sure I could have said the same if I had bought a Yamaha or Roland or Korg, in the case I would not have had a bad quality DP.

I understand that if you pay an important amount of money for something you won t accept any bad construction, we all agree on that.

In the end what will be your next digital piano? Because as you said, for you clp-785 is not that great and ca99 has reliability problem.
I agree with you that buying a DP is really a difficult task.... smile smile

Last edited by playplayplay; 05/25/21 07:28 AM.
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 141
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 141
Originally Posted by playplayplay
In the end what will be your next digital piano? Because as you said, for you clp-785 is not that great and ca99 has reliability problem.
I agree with you that buying a DP is really a difficult task.... smile smile

When I wrote "ca99 has reliability" I meant that Arjen suspects that ca99 has reliability problems, but he didn t experienced them by himself, because he didn t have problem with ca99 since he didn t bought it.

Last edited by playplayplay; 05/25/21 07:59 AM.
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 18
A
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
A
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 18
Originally Posted by playplayplay
Originally Posted by playplayplay
In the end what will be your next digital piano? Because as you said, for you clp-785 is not that great and ca99 has reliability problem.
I agree with you that buying a DP is really a difficult task.... smile smile

When I wrote "ca99 has reliability" I meant that Arjen suspects that ca99 has reliability problems, but he didn t experienced them by himself, because he didn t have problem with ca99 since he didn t bought it.

I might have been contradicting myself because there are two contradicting situations going on. On the one hand an awesome instrument with great sound and action, on the other hand an instrument about which many faults are reported. This is what made me feel really bipolar about my purchase. First going to the store to decide on a digital piano and the first time liking the Yamaha's action, the next day liking the Kawai's action more. The store already warned me for this and hence why they said many people come multiple times before making a decision. It's honestly not easy. Finally I bought Kawai, then getting second thoughts due to the forum thread, going back to the store to cancel but falling in love with it again instead. Then still getting third thoughts and ultimately cancel. It's honestly not easy. As somebody else put it "It's like a beautiful girl that you want but you know you should stay away from.".

I cannot have experienced any issues myself of course, but I think this forum thread has become long enough to make proper judgement about the issues before buying. Especially on the software part and the reported bugs. The bugs reported are bugs that would not easily show in the store during a quick test ride, but would only appear on the surface once being used home for several weeks.

Also, everybody has the same software so everybody should experience the same software bugs (for the same software version). Having hardware issues are a matter of bad luck, but software bugs will be the same for everyone so they will show up guaranteed. So I don't need to first risk to buy the piano to "find out" if I'm going to experiences issues or not. So honestly, yes, on the software side I am tendencious about the piano.

My next digital piano for now is unknown. Still using a Kawai MP9000 here, which is 20 years old and going strong. Again, if Kawai fixes their issues my next one will still be the CA99. And I will be the first one going back on the forum to praise Kawai's effort and quality if they do so. I figured if I'm going to be negative, I'm also going to write something positive when there is a reason for that.

If Kawai will not fix their issues, I will wait for their next model and see. Or I might still go for Yamaha, but only if they ever release something with a soundboard. I'm not a fanboy of any brand. I just like to look at whatever each brand has to offer. And it's a known fact that Yamaha is unmatched when it comes to reliability, build quality, customer service, spare parts, etc. You just cannot go wrong with that brand. But their sound is too neutral for me, while Kawai has a beautiful distinct warm sound. The instrument is more alive and has objectively better action. If they fix the better part of the issues then I could not wish for anything better.

Last edited by Arjen B; 05/25/21 08:54 AM.
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 141
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 141
Thank you for taking time to answer and hope that kawai will respond positively to your expectations.
And I present you my apologize for being so demanding.

Page 138 of 147 1 2 136 137 138 139 140 146 147

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
.nausicaa OP. (elementary version)
by WarDesu - 07/23/21 07:09 PM
Selling the sizzle if not the steak
by cfhosford - 07/23/21 06:25 PM
For the Experts
by Epee - 07/23/21 12:43 PM
Another question about piano positioning
by Cassia - 07/23/21 12:16 PM
1992 Yamaha C3 vs new CX2
by MusterMark - 07/23/21 10:19 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics208,177
Posts3,115,881
Members102,217
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5