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Originally Posted by Pete14
Okay, let’s agree to disagree because you’re thinking linearly and I’m thinking exponentially.

I understand your distrust and hesitance; after all, we have been moving at snail pace, but as I said before, all the necessary elements are coming together for an imminent exponential leap forward in advancements the likes of which we’ve never seen before.

It’s about world dominance (China) first, then the fact that we don’t need to reinvent the wheel here, but rather just make it rotate faster, and this is now possible for minimal cost as compared to ten years ago:

Storage is cheaper, modeling is simply waiting for more power (computational), and that is around the corner (M1-type processing) also for cheap, and once again, China is putting in an order for the first 5 million “iPianos,” so yes, demand is there, too.

Pete, we could have had an exponential grow already 10 years ago. And we didn't. So, what has changed today to make you think otherwise?

You talk about M1 CPU but you should know that digital pianos manufacturers, differently from Apple, are very stingy about the hardware they use inside their DPs. IMHO, today, we could have so much more for what we pay... But then, again, they make another series of DPs and what we have more compared to the previous one? Onkyo speakers? Binaural samples for the Bosendorfer piano patch? "1" more velocity layer for the CFX piano patch? Does this sound like "exponential growth" to you?

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We had a similar discussion here not too many years ago. Someone here thought pianos were on a "trajectory" toward huge improvements. He foresaw "exponential" growth and change.

But that was based on the glowing terminology used in product release literature. The latter is largely meaningless.

The truth is that change happens at a snail's pace.

Pete might choose to think exponentially. But his (or our) thinking does not lead to remarkable new advancements in pianos.

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On many occasions I've heard from knowledgeable engineers and other professionals that it can sometimes be the chosen practice among those who own new technologies to sit on the technologies and not bring them to market until the MOST commercially advantageous time. A manufacturer which does so, does it with the plan of only incrementally releasing new technologies into the marketplace at a pace that keeps it just ahead of or even with the competition, but not so fast as to cause the competition to immediately release all of their best technology in order to survive.

Under certain circumstances, I could see logic in such a plan. A corporation holding several successively improved generations of a technology could hope to ensure financial livelihood for a considerable distance into the future by only releasing as much of the technology as currently needed to keep sales at the desired level. It could work if all or the majority of competitors recognized the same and chose to proceed in the same fashion. No explicit conspiracy is needed, only the common perception that each will prosper by not shaking up the level of tech currently and profitably being released.

I am not personally close enough to the locus of these types of decisions to say that I have witnessed it. But, as a theory, it makes sense. And, it does match up with other, similar situations where a great number of providers have a similar understanding about the profitability of providing mediocrity, as part of an overall industry providing mediocrity, even though excellence might be readily available.

So, Pete14's observations and thoughts about tremendous improvement and advancement being within our grasp do not seem inconsistent with the equally supportable assertion that progress comes very slowly, especially to consumer type consumers. I can easily believe both that the technology for digital pianos that far exceed our current performance levels already exists, and, that we won't see the level of performance that is currently technologically available for many, many years.

Last edited by Ralphiano; 05/17/21 06:05 PM.

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There have been attempts at ‘significant advances’ but these have been stalled due perhaps to bad timing and, sometimes in the ‘purist-piano’ world, due to skepticism like what ‘we’ are demonstrating here.

Back in ‘98 Yamaha made such an attempt with two groundbreaking instruments, the CLP-990 and the GranTouch DGT7; the former used an action with fully wooden black and white keys on a pivot, 88 key sampling and a robust speaker system; the latter used a real grand piano action (unheard of at that time), a real baby grand cabinet, and also a phenomenal speaker system.

These two instruments did not do as Yamaha expected in terms of sales and even for the DGT7 the purists still labeled it a ‘big toy’. This was a major setback for Yamaha to the point that they stopped sampling 88 keys, reverted back to folded actions, and one might even speculate, ‘cheaper’ speakers. It would take years for Yamaha to bring back 88 key sampling and subsequently a ‘new’ hybrid to the market. Still, the AvantGrand N3X uses a modified (particle board) cabinet and not a 100% real wood cabinet (same cabinet used for the A1 baby acoustic).

But today it’s different because even so-called serious musicians are now publicly vouching for hybrids, and by extension these instruments are selling like hot cakes.

As I said before, technologies that were just being born back then have now matured, and essential components like storage have gotten cheaper; not to mention processing power now reaching new heights at much lower prices. Couple this to record demand, a dying acoustic market, and more competition, and it’s just a matter of time for the “iPiano” to become a reality. Whoever gets it right first will have a lead in the largest growing market for these pianos: China!

Also, word of mouth is something altogether different today, and on this forum alone every other day we hear of a happy N1X or NV5/10 owner. We see videos of ‘serious’ musicians playing challenging classical repertoire on these instruments on a daily basis on YouTube and other platforms, etc.....

This is all happening at the same time acoustic piano sales are dropping significantly. The ‘acoustic’ is also losing that appeal and/or allure of the 50s and ‘made by hand’ no longer signifies much for the great majority; affordability, reliability, and ‘good enough for Chopin’ is more than enough for most people nowadays.

IMHO!

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Originally Posted by magicpiano
You talk about M1 CPU but you should know that digital pianos manufacturers, differently from Apple, are very stingy about the hardware they use inside their DPs.
The M1 CPUs are very cheap to manufacture - about 10x cheaper than purchasing the equivalent Intel chipset. That's why the MacBook Pro are half the price of previous generation Intel chipset MacBooks. And they also consume 10x less electricity than Intel chipsets - making them perfectly suited to powering modelled piano engines.

Last edited by Burkey; 05/17/21 07:24 PM.

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“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.“ Emerson

Just like those who were surprised that a Covid vaccine could be produced in half the expected time, so digital tech is advancing at a rate that might surprise you. For example, the upcoming release of Osmose by Expressive E out of France.

After years of struggle with creating a keyboard instrument for Midi Polyphonic Expression (Linnstrument, Continuum, Roli) finally there is one that uses regular piano keys to create parameters like vibrato. This seemed very far away...like many things technological.... and then, voila it is there in front of you.... an MPE keyboard that doesn’t require a keyboardist to learn a new mode of playing skill.

Unless one thinks the boundaries of sound generated by a grand piano are mathematically
infinite, which they are not, all the parameters will be mapped eventually. After all, we have computers that do 4-5 quadrillion calculations per second. Will it take some time? Probably, but maybe not as long as you might think (or wish).


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https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070 for jazz, classical, world, rock tracks Albums on Bandcamp: https://michaelalevy.bandcamp.com/music
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Pete14 #3118799 05/17/21 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
There have been attempts at ‘significant advances’ but these have been stalled due perhaps to bad timing and, sometimes in the ‘purist-piano’ world, due to skepticism like what ‘we’ are demonstrating here.
Yamaha and Kawai both have a vested interest in ensuring that acoustic pianos are not overtaken by digital pianos any time soon - otherwise sales of their acoustic pianos will accelerate downwards.

It will only be the other manufacturers like Roland, Casio, Nord, Korg, Dexibell, and Fatar that can drive the acceleration of digital piano technology advancement.

Last edited by Burkey; 05/17/21 10:01 PM.

Pianos are one of the best human inventions of the past 320 years - help evangelize the magic!
Burkey #3118803 05/17/21 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Burkey
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Another thing: let's say you play C4 on a current digital piano... It will always be the same C4 sound even in 30 years.
Complete nonsense. You simply upgrade to Pianoteq 42: sounds better every year!

Burkey, your funny, hahaha!. Of course if you are still using the same dp, the sound will be consistent, compared to an acoustic piano without ever being maintained. smile


Hard at work while waiting for my dream DP....
EVC2017 #3118806 05/17/21 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by EVC2017
Originally Posted by Burkey
I wish people would stop taking offence at things not directed at them smile

Complete nonsense. People are people. grin

hahaha,.....:D



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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I want neither one of these ...
Originally Posted by desordre
Would you rather listen to an acoustic piano with a couple of slightly out of tune notes or to a digital piano with an obvious digital artifact?
I prefer an in-tune acoustic. Second place: a top digital piano.

An out-of-tune acoustic can be tuned.
A poor-sounding digital can be left on the showroom floor.
I don't want either one.

Yes, me neither. (that means I agree with Mac the third, smile )

I hope desorde understands that those DPs "with obvious digital artifact" were designed for those seeking an affordable version of the acoustic grand they truly desire , with the realistic sound, defects and all (key strikes, hammer sounds, pedal strikes... )


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Originally Posted by mmathew
OK so,

With regards to the differences in audio recordings acoustic vs. DPs:

Are DPs good enough to produce album-worthy recordings? From what we have heard so far:

- Yes, to a limited extent. The resonance has not been satisfactorily 'designed'* There are pieces even below virtuoso level that will expose the limitations of the DP.

- With VSTs, to a great extent, yes. In addition, VSTs and DAWs provide excellent audio recording capabilities that can do it. But VSTs too lack in enough resonance 'design'*. Virtuoso and hyper-virtuoso pieces will expose the VSTs' weaknesses.

- To a good ear, these inefficiencies are disappointingly obvious.

What else?


---
* designed - sampled. modeled. sampled, then used to model. and whatever goes with it.

Putting two high fidelity recordings (non-mp3) of the same piece, side by side would definitely reveal those limits...
But we humans, being imperfect as we are, will always love the acoustic piano, with all its so called 'defects'. Those defects add to a DP's character (such as varying resonances and tuning/detuning) .Because to us that imperfection is what makes it real. Now you see why the first matrix* failed. smile This is of course largely on classical pieces. On other genres, like jazz, blues, it doesn't matter. The examples below, according the wikipedia, as originally recorded, is of "soft-rock" genre.


On a DP


On a Grand


OP, I applaud your sincere effort to steer the conversion back to it original purpose....


*A conversation between Neo and the Engineer, Matrix Revolutions.


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Originally Posted by josh_sounds
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I want neither one of these ...
Originally Posted by desordre
Would you rather listen to an acoustic piano with a couple of slightly out of tune notes or to a digital piano with an obvious digital artifact?
I prefer an in-tune acoustic. Second place: a top digital piano.

An out-of-tune acoustic can be tuned.
A poor-sounding digital can be left on the showroom floor.
I don't want either one.

Yes, me neither. (that means I agree with Mac the third, smile )

I hope desorde understands that those DPs "with obvious digital artifact" were designed for those seeking an affordable version of the acoustic grand they truly desire , with the realistic sound, defects and all (key strikes, hammer sounds, pedal strikes... )
Dear Josh,
Actually, I mean something else: a digital artifact is some undesired by-product of sound processing. Think, for instance, of pedalling "jumps", or mid-range harmonic envelope - the usual things that give away a digital is not an acoustic.

The components you mention are actual parts of the sound of the piano, which cannot be "avoided" since it is a mechanical machine.

But again, we choose on a daily basis between those situations: even the best controller-VST combo available still has some obvious minor flaws, and our acoustic piano are out of tune as a rule. Just check your own, it will have at least one key that has that annoying clash.

Oh, and BTW, learning how to tune and DIY is the perfect solution, but it's absolutely not easy. Many so-called professionals just can't deliver a well-tuned piano. It's an art in its own.

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Originally Posted by pold
Originally Posted by desordre
BTW, do you guys know of any album (even a small independent release) that did this already?

Rabih Rihana, great pianist, he posts here sometimes, I think he recorded some album with vst.

Thanks, bro! I'll check his work :-)

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