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Did the teacher get paid a commission from the Steinway dealer?

A teacher doesn’t need to be getting a commission to be narrow-minded about piano brands. I take very occasional lessons from a pianist who believes Steinway is the only piano worth mentioning. And no, he doesn’t get a commission since we don’t live on the same continent. When I was looking for a piano, and bought my M & H, and told him, it elicited s blank stare. I didn’t care since he was neither paying for nor would he be playing my piano every day. 😺 Shouldn’t you only worry about pleasing yourself?

Thank you. I worry about pleasing my customers.

I know a teacher in the UK who has this attitude: That Steinway is the only piano, and for that matter Steinway grands. There is quite a well-known pianist in Scotland who has a Steinway model K upright at home and the teacher with this narrow view said "Of course he doesn't have a piano at home, which is quite unusual". There was another teacher who had a Yamaha grand and he said "they don't have a piano at home".... it's really quite a strange view since clearly a Steinway Model K is a piano however you look at it, and so is a Yamaha grand. I wonder if it's the same teacher HAHA!

Could be —- but wrong country 😺. I think the attitude is more common than we realize, and not just with teachers

That is so bizarre! 🤣😂🤣😂🤣

Hi all. So I went to my Steinway Dealer over the weekend just to check out the sale they have. Since I am playing a C3x I asked for a piano no shorter than 6 feet. I don't have much experience playing Steinways so I decided to check it out.

I was shown the A model and B model. I had the opportunity to play all the brand new and yes it's a hit and miss some models were so so and some really gave a good impression.

The biggest learning for me here was when I started to ask about used Steinways. The manager showed me certified used L models on the floor that have been sold that morning. I was still able to play to get the feel and sound of certified. He gave me pricing for used A, O and L but it will come from a different dealership location so I have to put down payment if I'm really serious and they'll move the piano for me to try it out.

The manager told me to be very cautious about buying used Steinways. He said if any of the part that has been replaced is not a genuine part, then it is not a Steinway anymore. If I call a Steinway appraiser to check it out, I would loose a lot of money since rebuilt Steinways without genuine parts will greatly diminish the value. In short it will be a loss of investment. Steinway will only sell parts to qualified Steinway techs/ dealers.

I asked further and he cited that old Steinway pianos have parts that have been discontinued and you can only change some to an extent since not all will be compatible. So if I open the piano, it will show the "whippen" color is old since that is the one rebuilders cannot change or else it will be be very costly and totally buying a new set of mechanical parts. He also told me about hammers that some shave it to make it fit and work with the existing whippens and they try to do this to make the action lighter.

He pointed out not all rebuilders have access to buy genuine Steinway parts and can't find replacement to fit hence they put Renner action. So having said that Renner action is not a genuine Steinway part and that will devaluate the piano. I told him I thought Renner company was bought by Steinway so I got confused. He said yes but only recently so those pianos rebuilt with renner before Steinway acquired the brand is totally not a Steinway and again it is still not a Steinway genuine brand part.

He also said Steinway bought Renner company so that they can control and stop selling piano parts and further control the market of rebuilding old Steinways.

I cited an example I told him I found a local Steinway rebuilder who told me that everything has been done on the piano she's selling- refinishing, pinblock, strings, pin, agraffes, dampers, keytops, complete action stack hamburg action parts, new damper action. Dealer cautioned me about the soundboard that it can only be bought from Steinway. Going back to the logic if any of the part is not Steinway then it is not considered a Steinway and devaluates the piano appraisal in case I sell it down the road.

So for those who are rebuilding Steinways and those who have bought old rebuilt Steinways, what are your thoughts about this experience of mine? Which one is true and which one is a big lie? I hope to get facts here and learn more about the truth / what to caution about buying used rebuilt / reconditioned Steinways.

$100K (or more) for a new piano that is so-so? I think not. I bet your Yamaha C3x is better. And for $100K I'd expect an instrument that would blow me away rather than merely give a "good" impression.

A telling sign of the man's ignorance.

What was the tone of the salesman in this scenario? It sounds like a lot of scare tactics to try to make sure they get a cut of your business in one form or another.

With that being said, it is a perfectly fair statement that any Steinway with replacement parts from Steinway is not an 'authentic' Steinway. Whether that should control the resale price or not -- I'm not so sure, and I have my doubts. But it is fair for a company to state that the quality is dubious since they cannot control for anything in that scenario. That doesn't mean aftermarket parts are not worthy of consideration.

I'm sure there have been rebuilt Steinways with other parts that have sold for fantastic sums of money, and they were/are probably beautiful instruments.

Also, my two cents, but if you're buying this piano with already the consideration of what you can sell it for in the future, then I think that assessment needs to way heavily in your evaluation of any piano purchase you plan to make. Maybe a Steinway is better than others in that regard. But maybe you'll know the right piano when the thought of resale doesn't cross your mind

My $0.02.

By the way -- how were the discounts? I didn't get a chance to go in.

I'm not buying one I just want to be educated about this experience visiting a Steinway store.

Only the store manager was there to assist me. He was easy on me and was not pushy or scared me but maybe the word is caution when buying used. Of course they've mastered their craft to be smooth on their sales talk so I just rode with it and tried to remember all that he said and shared it here.

Wait Ghostnotes- you said a Steinway piano even with Steinway parts are not anymore authentic? I'm lost on this one. Pls explain further.

Manager also told me a lot of rebuilt Steinways are bought by pianists who like the sound and touch. But when an appraiser comes to evaluate the piano they find the hard truth that they paid so much for a piano that does not contain authentic Steinway parts. This is where he pointed out it is a big loss of investment in case the piano will be sold down the road. The appraisal will reflect all of these.

He kept on using the word "Certified" for the used ones they sell. Warranty coverage depending on the original year piano was made is 1-3 years only. He said a lot of pianos carry a long warranty but truth behold what does it really cover? Some brands even claimed lifetime warranty but where are they now, they've closed.

This is my first time to see new price of Steinway so I don't have much comparison. But yeah it's really super expensive for brand new. To give an example:
2020 Model B Spirio $131,400 from $142,800 5yrs warranty
2019 Model B $103,700 from $117,800 5yrs warranty
1925 Model L $32,900 1year warranty
2000 Model L $57,800 3yrs warranty

I got some certified used A and O prices but I don't have the paper with me.

Probably I find the prices to be really high compared to the prices of other rebuilders I've seen online. However, his argument is that the certified pianos went through a 360deg inspection, passed the Steinway inspection so again "certified" bought from Steinway dealer will dictate the higher price. The logic is like buying a car that is certified vs non certified.

I can't seem to edit my post, but I meant to say '...Without replacement parts from Steinway...", sorry for the confusion.

For the piano rebuilders out there -- how much is lost by not using an 'authentic Steinway' part for all portions that can be replaced by something else? I'm not thinking along the lines of a total rebuild (which to be fair, is a new instrument), but say replacing action components.

Do you mean how much may be lost in value? Or how much is lost in quality? In either case, I think the answer would be very subjective. Ultimately how well the piano sounds and performs should be what really matters.

Here is long discussion on rebuilt S&S and their 'authenticity' which might be of interest for you:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3109323/1.html

By intuition, I agree with you. Sound and performance quality are what counts, along with the apparent quality of the build as judged by an independent technician. However, I'm pretty ignorant on the fine technical details of pianos. I suppose I'm just curious how different the parts would really be if one was meant to be a parametric equivalent to the original Steinway part. If you're going by the technical details of the part, then by design it should be...no different. The quality of the rebuilder seems to be a more important assessment if proper fit is accounted for.

Anyways, it's a practical CYA tactic by Steinway to warn about rebuilds from other parties. I would just judge each piano as an individual, and if I like it enough (and it is used), have it inspected first.

As you will find out it all depends upon who you talk to and how affects the value of the piano they happen to have in their possession. Each will have a different idea of what is the truth and what is a lie. Each of them wants to protect the value of piano they own or want to sell.

The issue at hand has nothing to do with the quality of rebuilt Steinways. There are some very high quality ones out there and some really really bad ones. Some of them are rebuilt by Steinway. Some of them are built buy reputable piano builders. Some of them are rebuilt by fly by night companies on ebay trying to make a quick buck others are privately sold.

The issue at hand is who decides how the trademark "Steinway" can be used. To me the answer should be pretty straightforward, but for others, again it all depends upon who you talk to and what that particular person has to lose. It's a touchy subject to say the least. My suggestion is not to engage in this subject on these boards. You already know everything you need to know.

Steinways are an interesting case. For young artists who always dream about owning a Steinway, buying a rebuilt piano is the only way to possibly afford one. That’s the great thing about Baldwins. I can buy a decent used concert grand if I ever had a place to put it.

I will preface by saying that when I visited my local Steinway gallery a couple months ago, I spent a very enjoyable hour and a half. There were no negative comments about other dealers or other manufacturers. I also didn’t ask questions about the Steinways offered through other dealers! But I got to play a lot of instruments and felt like I came away with what I wanted, which was a sense of the Steinway piano ethos.

That said, even in my short time here on PianoWorld, stories like yours seem to be fairly commonplace.

To me, the big problem with this kind of sales argument is that it seems highly logically inconsistent. They are on the one hand telling you that one of the reasons you should buy their pianos is that Steinway has some magical characteristic that no other piano manufacturer has, in that it retains its value as an ‘investment.’ On the other hand, they are telling you that most Steinways out there, once they get to the point of being sold again, have been ‘greatly devalued,’ even when these pianos were owned by pianists (who presumably were discriminating in who they chose to maintain their pianos and the nature of the work that was done). This raises huge red flags in my head. The conclusion I reach is that if I want to ensure that the value of the piano is maintained, I not only need to have a competent technician, I also need to retain an attorney to tell me what can and can’t be done with my instrument! Needless to say, this is a huge turnoff for me!

I will add to this that Steinway seems more than happy to use the perception of their brand being a ‘good investment’ in a way that is convenient to them. They seem very willing to sell the Boston and Essex lines under the patina of an investment, but my understanding is that when these are re-sold, they do not enjoy the magic of being a ‘Steinway investment,’ much to the disappointment of the person who bought it with that understanding.

I have no idea how appraisers decide on the value of a piano, or what the relationship is between the appraised value and what you could expect to get in a private sale. However, I’d be a little skeptical about the salesman’s claims on this front.

S&S was sued by a group of customers claiming S&S misleaded them with their claims that their piano is 'investment' and its price increase over time. I don't know where it is now though.

Steinway has increased the weight of their hammers and reduced the leverage of the action from what was typical for about 100 years. So if you want the historically correct Steinway piano, you can't use the new methods and parts.

I think new Steinway's are the real Steinwas.