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Joined: Sep 2007
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Originally Posted by fr34k
I have found another bug: please test.

Change to “Full Organ” in the organ tab and configure your sustain pedal to sustain the tone.
Now press the lower keys (A0 to E1) repeatedly with pedal continuously held. Regardless of volume I hear strange sounds out of the right pair of top speakers (distortions maybe?)

Do you hear the same thing through headphones?

Are you able to provide an example recording (recorded using the USB audio recorder) that demonstrates this sound?

Kind regards,
James
x


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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Do you hear the same thing through headphones?

Yes, it is audible through the headphone out.

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Are you able to provide an example recording (recorded using the USB audio recorder) that demonstrates this sound?

There you go: https://we.tl/t-XAJSNvQJ86
I just used my iPhone's voice memo feature, that's why the recording is quite noisy (AGC and a lawnmower outside). I've also added the internal recording. I've recorded it as a wave with 25% gain and then normalised it afterwards to avoid clipping. You can hear in the internal recording a few pops - likely where the sample is looped. In the recording from the iPhone you can hear the distortions quite clearly. Volume was set to 30% (2 dots), the iPhone laid on the top board but not on the speaker mesh (the wooden part).

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Originally Posted by fr34k
There you go: https://we.tl/t-XAJSNvQJ86
I just used my iPhone's voice memo feature, that's why the recording is quite noisy (AGC and a lawnmower outside). I've also added the internal recording. I've recorded it as a wave with 25% gain and then normalised it afterwards to avoid clipping. You can hear in the internal recording a few pops - likely where the sample is looped. In the recording from the iPhone you can hear the distortions quite clearly. Volume was set to 30% (2 dots), the iPhone laid on the top board but not on the speaker mesh (the wooden part).

Wow, that crackling on your phone mic is no joke. I thought it was a creaking chair you were sitting on at first !
I wonder why it's so subdued on the headphones/internal recorder in comparison ?


Kawai CA79 (Jan 2021), Casio Privia PX-870 (Jun 2017)
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After I cancelled my order with the dealer, the dealer informed Kawai and they sent them the forum link again. This was their reply to my dealer:



we are sorry to hear that one of your customers want to cancel his CA99 order.


We are aware about several claims from CA79/CA99 customers. All claims that we have received in the past we passed over to our R&D department in Japan.


Today we also sent them the link which you sent us in your email.


I know that our engineers are working on updates but the speed is very slow perhaps because to the pandemic situation.


Unfortunately we don’t know when the CA79/CA99 update will be available.


I will inform you immediately when the update is available. I’m sure that your mentioned “employee of Kawai” will also inform the customers in the forum when the update will be available.


I hope your customer will not cancel his order.



So it looks like there will be an update, but we just need to be very patient. But I still cancelled because I first want to see it.

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Originally Posted by Arjen B
So it looks like there will be an update, but we just need to be very patient. But I still cancelled because I first want to see it.


You did very well.
Don't trust the promise of a future update. Maybe it will come (maybe), but we have no idea if it will permanently fix the problems or add more (the benefit of the doubt is legitimate in this cas).
You would currently end up with a faulty piano, and would have serious problems reselling it as it is.

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On another note..
Does anybody know if the ca79 sk-ex concert grand vs ex concert grand use the same sound engine.

I really like the clear sound of the ex concert, but it seems to just play loud. Having a hard time playing it softly.


Are they both modeling engines or is the ex-concert sampling.

Ron

Last edited by ronlefebvre; 05/14/21 09:55 PM.
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It gets a bit confusing, as the SK-EX Concert Grand has ten "Rendering Types" and three variations that are not "Rendering". The EX Concert Grand has seven variants, all of which are not "Rendering".

The "SK-EX Rendering" types are samples with modelling on top, providing a supposedly better resonance. The non-rendering ones are sampled.

I think! I'm working off page 10 of my instruction book.

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I have a question for Kawai James, is there any real-time modelling inside CA79/99? Or is it that SK-EK Rendering sound types were "sampled" (i.e. pre-rendered) from modelled sound based on the original SK-EX samples.

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Afaik modelling means the sound is generated (or, if sample-based, transformed) by an algorithm using parameters that reflect real-life properties of the instrument. It wouldn't seem to make sense to sample the output of that and call it modelling.

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Originally Posted by ronlefebvre
Having a hard time playing it softly.
I can get them to about the same loudness. But to consistently produce a note and not miss one I absolutely have to play in the heart of the keys (the very tip). I’m a beginner though…

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The SK-EX Rendering Engine is a sampled-based engine, exactly like its predecessor (HI-XL engine). The main difference between the 2 is that the SK-EX R.E. is multi-sampled from different perspectives (so you can get a more realistic ambience sound) while the HI-XL has just a single perspective (presumably a "close" perspective). The second difference is that there are new algorithms for some resonance effects. For example, the Undamped String Resonance effect IMHO is much better sounding on the SK-EX Rendering Engine.

I don't know why some reviewers on youtube love to talk about the SK-EX Rendering Engine like it was a modeled piano engine, but it's not really the case here... AFAIK Kawai itself never said it's modeled. Maybe some resonance effects are modeled, but the piano notes are generated by the usual sample playing and looping + resonances fx added on top!

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If that is true, then it is extremely disappointing as far as I am concerned.

Ron


Originally Posted by magicpiano
The SK-EX Rendering Engine is a sampled-based engine, exactly like its predecessor (HI-XL engine). The main difference between the 2 is that the SK-EX R.E. is multi-sampled from different perspectives (so you can get a more realistic ambience sound) while the HI-XL has just a single perspective (presumably a "close" perspective). The second difference is that there are new algorithms for some resonance effects. For example, the Undamped String Resonance effect IMHO is much better sounding on the SK-EX Rendering Engine.

I don't know why some reviewers on youtube love to talk about the SK-EX Rendering Engine like it was a modeled piano engine, but it's not really the case here... AFAIK Kawai itself never said it's modeled. Maybe some resonance effects are modeled, but the piano notes are generated by the usual sample playing and looping + resonances fx added on top!

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Very simple: The best of both worlds: The sound quality of a first class multi perspective recording of one of the best Concert Grands in the world and the playability and multi note resonance effects by high end physical modelling. All that combined with a brake through new ambience model (for me this alone justifies the buy: Gone are the washy reverb soups of after processing of conventional reverb generating algorithms). Brought to your ears by a high end Onkyo Multispeaker sound system with 3D projection and vibration simulation with multi transducers a a real sound board. For me BY FAR the best and most versatile piano engine in the world.

Galuwen

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Guess who just found another recording bug that leads to permanent loss of recording files ?
Yours truly, and the hard way, as always...

Very reproducible one this time. Here we go... sigh

With a USB plugged in (SanDisk did not offer its holy protection).
Record something, must be of some length (around 1min is enough).
Save it.
Immediately go to the USB player, because of course you want to listen to it.
It's there in the list, you double tap to launch (or tap and press 'play').
A "Song loading" screen appears, stays for ~5-10sec and then you get the "recorder/playback error".
The file is still in the list, you can do the same from the "recorder playback" menu, with identical results.

If you remove the USB stick and replug it, or restart the piano, you will then realize the file has disappeared (can't be seen from piano menus anymore, of from a computer).


I suppose this has to do with the piano not having fully saved the file to the key, and then trying to access it from the player somehow corrupts it ?
With very short recordings (2sec) the file probably saved completely before I could reach the USB player, so it worked fine then.
Files should not be accessible if so easily corrupted. Better yet, nothing should be able to touch a recording file before the system is absolutely certain it is safe !


This is not OK.


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Originally Posted by Meap6
Guess who just found another recording bug that leads to permanent loss of recording files ?
Yours truly, and the hard way, as always...

Oh dear. I hope your sanity is still intact.

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Originally Posted by fr34k
Originally Posted by Meap6
Guess who just found another recording bug that leads to permanent loss of recording files ?
Yours truly, and the hard way, as always...

Oh dear. I hope your sanity is still intact.
Much like the recording files, I will reach a point where my sanity disappears, or get corrupted.
I hope my memory is not as unstable as my piano's but who knows ? crazy


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Doing ridiculously convoluted things in order to try to find errors in programs is what any regular QA team has for a living. Usually, the arcane errors they find lead to the development team uncovering and correcting things that seemed good enough on the surface but really needed fixing. Some of the errors will however be 'edge cases' that only specific usage, usually avoidable, will trigger, and are hence shrugged off as known issues. Had the people who developed the UI, or those in Kawai who ordered it, done proper QA, this thread would be much shorter.

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Originally Posted by entonio
Doing ridiculously convoluted things in order to try to find errors in programs is what any regular QA team has for a living. Usually, the arcane errors they find lead to the development team uncovering and correcting things that seemed good enough on the surface but really needed fixing. Some of the errors will however be 'edge cases' that only specific usage, usually avoidable, will trigger, and are hence shrugged off as known issues. Had the people who developed the UI, or those in Kawai who ordered it, done proper QA, this thread would be much shorter.

I'm not sure I get the point you're trying to make?

I don't think the procedure I described is "ridiculously convoluted" or an "arcane error": record something, save it first, and then go and listen to it.
I've had enough issues already to want to be sure my recording is saved before doing anything else. Little did I know...


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By the way, has anyone else been able to reproduce the recording issue ?

Originally Posted by Meap6
With a USB plugged in (SanDisk did not offer its holy protection).
Record something, must be of some length (around 1min is enough).
Save it.
Immediately go to the USB player, because of course you want to listen to it.
It's there in the list, you double tap to launch (or tap and press 'play').
A "Song loading" screen appears, stays for ~5-10sec and then you get the "recorder/playback error".
The file is still in the list, you can do the same from the "recorder playback" menu, with identical results.

If you remove the USB stick and replug it, or restart the piano, you will then realize the file has disappeared (can't be seen from piano menus anymore, of from a computer).


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BTW, the new Novus line has been released.

„As with their predecessors, the NV10S and NV5S incorporate a 5" touchscreen display discretely embedded in the instruments’ left cheekblock, with the touchscreen’s updated hardware and software adopting the same system design and user interface introduced with the CA99 and CA79 digital pianos. This improved UI is optimised for pianists, and provides easier access to additional sound and functions that inspire musical creativity.“ - kawai-global website

I guess we were beta-testing and the update could be released quite soon. (All speculative!)

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