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#3115654 05/09/21 07:39 PM
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I know that DC Al Fine means go to the start and play to Fine, correct?

How do you handle repeats and or multiple endings in the repeat?

Here's what I thought based on this score

Play bars 1-8 then
Play bars 1-6 and 9-18
then play bars 1-10



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Sometimes the score will also say "DC al fine senza ripetizione", which means no repeats on the DC. Yours doesn't say that, so it's pretty much up to you.

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Originally Posted by Sam S
Sometimes the score will also say "DC al fine senza ripetizione", which means no repeats on the DC. Yours doesn't say that, so it's pretty much up to you.

Sam
Then if I dont repeat do I play both endings 1 and 2 or skip those and play from beginning then skip 1 and and play bar 10 then done. This one seems confusing and I feel like there a few ways it could be played and I'm not sure which one is meant to be done.

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I would play both endings after the DC.


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Originally Posted by Sebs
Originally Posted by Sam S
Sometimes the score will also say "DC al fine senza ripetizione", which means no repeats on the DC. Yours doesn't say that, so it's pretty much up to you.

Sam
Then if I dont repeat do I play both endings 1 and 2 or skip those and play from beginning then skip 1 and and play bar 10 then done. This one seems confusing and I feel like there a few ways it could be played and I'm not sure which one is meant to be done.

It's such a short piece I would take the repeat in the DC. Beginning -> first ending -> beginning -> second ending -> to bottom of page -> beginning -> first ending -> beginning -> second ending -> Fine.

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At the D.C., when you go back to the first section, you can do the repeat in that section - the "A" section. In a longer piece, one often doesn't play repeats of the "A" section of a piece.

However, just to be absolutely clear: do not play both endings the last time through. This should be obvious because the harmony of the first ending leads back to the beginning. Whichever is your last time through, you skip the first ending and go from measure 6, skip measure 7 and 8, to finish with measures 9 and 10.

Regards,


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Normally it's 1st ending 1st time through the top section, 2nd ending 2nd time through. At the DC al Fine, we'd go back to the top section once and take the 2nd ending to end the piece. Repeating a section too many times would make it sound too repetitive.

Here the bottom part of the piece is like the typical Trio (connecting section) in the slow 3rd movement of a Mozart Symphony. The top section is for intro & ending. The sequence: top section => repeat of the top section => Trio => top section just once to end the piece.
You rarely hear the top section with the repeat after the Trio.

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There are a couple of options here. Typically this a kind of simple sectional rounded binary form (ABA), though there is not any modulation to any other key. So normally i would play first section once with the first ending and then with the second ending, and after the second section, i would play the first section again (the Da Capo) with the second ending only and only once.

It is possible to also twist a little to add some variety. Ending the first section on the tonic is a bit boring. So a possibility is to play first section with the first ending twice, which creates a good contrast when starting the second section and play the second ending with the Da Capo. The way the piece is written, it is unlikely that it was intended that way, but i like it better.

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Very interesting, I learned something today, LOL! 👍😊


Lisa

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Originally Posted by BruceD
At the D.C., when you go back to the first section, you can do the repeat in that section - the "A" section. In a longer piece, one often doesn't play repeats of the "A" section of a piece.

However, just to be absolutely clear: do not play both endings the last time through. This should be obvious because the harmony of the first ending leads back to the beginning. Whichever is your last time through, you skip the first ending and go from measure 6, skip measure 7 and 8, to finish with measures 9 and 10.

Regards,
Got it. So bar 8 and 9 should never be played in sequence, correct? Regardless if you decide to repeat again. It was not obvious to me laugh thanks for pointing it out now I'll be more aware of things like that. These little things I keep picking up are adding up.

Originally Posted by Sidokar
There are a couple of options here. Typically this a kind of simple sectional rounded binary form (ABA), though there is not any modulation to any other key. So normally i would play first section once with the first ending and then with the second ending, and after the second section, i would play the first section again (the Da Capo) with the second ending only and only once.

It is possible to also twist a little to add some variety. Ending the first section on the tonic is a bit boring. So a possibility is to play first section with the first ending twice, which creates a good contrast when starting the second section and play the second ending with the Da Capo. The way the piece is written, it is unlikely that it was intended that way, but i like it better.

Thanks. After BruceD pointed out how the first ending ties back to beginning I was thinking this is how to play it too. The DC Al Fine took you to the beginning treat it like you just started and play the repeats as is. Cool tip on adding some variety I will try that out too.

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This one is interesting as there's not much consensus on it. Would a score normally have more details or would always be open to interpretation? This throws me off as I thought classical is known for you play it as written you don't decide on what endings, etc. I would imagine there is a way that it should be played. Naturally I lean towards the way BruceD and others advised that approach to seems to be most logical. Just wondering if this happens often?

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For classical minuet/trios, there are two schools of thought. The 'traditional' way most of us learned a few decades ago was to do the repeats for the minuet, repeats in the trio, and then re-do the minuet WITHOUT repeats.

More recently, the early-music crowd has taken another look at the problem. A few reasons not to do the more recent tradition. One is that there are several minuets or scherzos which desperately need the first part to be repeated. Beethoven's 1st Symphony is a standard example. Playing those 8 bars only once is like reciting a limerick while leaving out the second line.

The other, textual, reason is that there are several sonatas and quartets by Beethoven and Mozart (Haydn, too, I think) that specify NOT to do repeats on the da capo. If that was the obvious tradition, why bother? Or why only for those pieces.

Bottom line: probably do repeats, at least through the classical period. [Mendelssohn and after might do with a different line of attack.] But if the balance of the movement comes out too skewed this way, consider dropping later repeats.

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Whether or not to play repeats is a point of contention even among some of the top pianists. Some people are highly annoyed when repeats are skipped while others skip repeats as it suits them. Personally I feel that it depends on the piece.

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Originally Posted by Sebs
This one is interesting as there's not much consensus on it. Would a score normally have more details or would always be open to interpretation? This throws me off as I thought classical is known for you play it as written you don't decide on what endings, etc. I would imagine there is a way that it should be played. Naturally I lean towards the way BruceD and others advised that approach to seems to be most logical. Just wondering if this happens often?

The western music spans several centuries and the performance practice has varied a lot during this timeframe. The score contains only a part of what is needed to play the piece. Many factors, if not the most important ones are not in the score but are part of the style and usual performance practice of the period. And that performance practice varied a lot, even by country, composer or simply circumstances. I think many people have some difficult to understand how diversified was the practice compared to our very standardized, rule driven approach.

For example the baroque minuet is different from the classical period minuet, like the early ones written by Mozart. And some of the mature pieces by Haydn and later Beethoven's further evolved the form.

In terms of the repeats in the classical period, in particular the Da capo repeats, several experts (Leisinger/Levin, Badura-Skoda, ...) are of the opinion that they were meant to be played twice, as a basic rule. That said, in practice that was not always the case, as performances were subject to various factors. Repeats, even those pertaining to the exposition of a sonata in symphonies and other pieces were not always repeated. HC Koch who wrote a famous treatise on composition in 1787 said : ".... the first Allegro of the symphony ... has two sections which may be performed with or without repetition".

In the baroque period, minuets for example when used as instrumental music supporting a dance event would very well be suited for repeats. But played as stylized music, it was subject to other factors, duration, repetitiveness, ....

Another point to bear in mind is that in the 18th century, people would not be able to listen to music other than when attending to concerts. Repeating a section, when time was available, was also a way to ensure they would be able to better remember the piece.

Nowadays, the usual practice is to play the Da capo only once. In baroque music, most harpsichordist would vary the Da capo vs the first 2 times to avoid monotony. In classical period music, it is usual practice not to embellish, though some interprets choose to do so. I believe these practices are in part related to our modern sensitivity and to avoid too many similar repeats.

In the case of this piece, even though I named it a sectional rounded binary, it really is only a very simplified version of it and it does not comply with the usual features; to some extent, because it is so much simplier, it is probably even better to just think of it as a simple ABA sectional form.

The main reason to not repeat the Da capo is simply because the B section is only 8 measures long, and playing 4 times the same 8 bars of section A, would be really boring .....

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This is helpful I had no idea of any of this with repeats. Did composers write in repeats or was just up to the performer to decide based on audience and what’s going on? Such as did repeats get added by publishers and other pianist well after the scores were written?

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Originally Posted by Sebs
This is helpful I had no idea of any of this with repeats. Did composers write in repeats or was just up to the performer to decide based on audience and what’s going on? Such as did repeats get added by publishers and other pianist well after the scores were written?

Well, the repeat sign as we know it today really got standard in the second half of the 17th century. Before that, there were a number of different signs used to indicate repeats and as late as early 19th century, there are still occasionally some minor differences (see first edition of opus 135 by Beethoven). And in sectional music, sometimes no repeats were indicated but it was usual to repeat, for example typically in dance music. Also to bear in mind that printing music was rare and expensive. It is really after 1750 that printing became usual. Many pieces by Bach have never been printed and we know them by hand copies. As composers usually wrote music and directed the execution, they could decide what to repeat.

For baroque music it is often times a question of balance, so if a piece has 2 sections, one short and one very long, it can be an option to repeat the first one but not the second. That said, Apart from the specific case of the Minuet Da capo and some exeptional cases, most modern performers do play the repeats, and harpsichordists usually add embellishment the second time. As a side comment, in many cases, not all mouvements of suites were always played in sequence and together, as we do today. A number of written texts by composers like Couperin indicate that any subset of mouvements could be played.

For classical pieces (Mozart, Haydn,.....), we have to separate the general case of repeats and the Minuet Da Capo. For usual repeats, those became very frequently indicated by composers, but there are still some cases were there is no repeat sign (intentional ? ) but it should or could be repeated. Or there is a repeat sign at the beginning of the piece and not at the end, in which case the editor decided what to do. The editors sometimes made choices as to how print the piece. One example is the first edition of Clementi Opus 9. In 9/3 for example there is no repeats signs at all but we have the autograph and the composer did indicate some repeats as it is printed in modern urtext editions.

It is fair to assume that these repeats were intended to be played and should be played, in particular in the exposition of allegro sonata form, as described by theorists. But practice and theory are often times different and we know that in practice at the time it was not always necessarily the case (for various reasons, musically justified or not). Except special cases, modern performers usually do play the repeats.

For the Minuet or Scherzo Da Capo repetition (ie we play the minuet with its repeat then the trio with its repeats and then back to the Minuet with the question of playing it once or twice), there are not a lot of indications but the few that we have do indicate they were supposed to be played twice. For example Türk: " Minuetto da Capo ..... this indicates that the minuet is to be played from the beginning that is with the prescribed repeats, consequently like the first time, unless ma senza replica is explicitely added". So composers could use the term ma senza replica selectively. Unhapilly in practice, we dont know how frequently they actually used it when it was their intention or how customary it was to write that indication. And as said, practice and theory are 2 different things and we know that there were a number of adjustements frequently made at the time.

We also know that the second time the da Capo was played, it was possibly with a change of dynamics, in some parts of it. Mozart specified it for the K563. And Czerny wrote: "On the repetition or Da Capo of a Scherzo after the trio, the first part of it when played for the second time, and the following second part when played the first time, must be performed throughout pp and almost without any emphasis".

Notwithstanding, most modern performers do not play the repeats of the da Capo to avoid repetitiveness.


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